green flag european breakdown hell

[theprophecy]

Just looking for a bit of advice

basically went to portugal in our minibus and the cam belt broke on the motorway - got terrible service from green flag who left us in the dark for three hours before a tow truck came out. Finally got a call from GF 5 hours later saying that the garage had checked the car and that the engine would cost 2500euros to fix! I asked how they knew the engine was damaged and the GF gave me some waffle about them looking at the pulleys and wheels on the engine to check which is of course a load of rubbish as youve got to take the head off to check the valves and pistons. Besides that the garage were closing up for the night before we set off so how they checked it when closed i dont know.
Faced with that bill be had no choice to scrap the vehicle as GF decided it wasnt worth enough to repatriate
When we revisited the bus 5 days later to get our possesions we found that it was exactly in the same place as we left it with no evidence of inspection and smiling portugese mechanics.

Now whats made it worse is that on taking advice from a qualified LDV mechanic the timing belt does not cause engine damage! A replacement belt would have got the engine working!

Do I have any recourse with green flag as the portuguese garage i assume would be working as GF agent?

[Bookworm]

Not necessarily. Depending on where in Portugal, GF might have had a local agent to whom they would have passed your details, and they in turn would have sent out the nearest available garage. Or they might have a contract with garage directly. Or they would have a list of garages willing to accept billing to GF direct instead of making you pay first and reclaim from GF second. Or they pass the details to a Portuguese assistance company to send one of the garages on their books. Impossible to tell from here, only GF can tell you which is which.

Have a read of this:
Timing belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may well explain why replacement of the belt might have been uneconomical to carry out. Remember as well that depending on the brand of the vehicle, parts might have had to be shipped from the UK to Portugal before repairs could take place, further adding to the costs. Meanwhile, storage costs would be accruing.

Bottom line, GF have to accept the local garage findings and make their decision based on those. If you suspected something was not right when you went to collect your belongings, you really should have phoned back GF and made them aware there and then, and asked them to get a secondary inspection or at least to ask further questions, in particular if it looked as if your vehicle had not been inspected (although how you can tell, I do not know).

Your qualified LDV mechanic may say one thing, but I have had so many contradicting mechanic reports over the years that I wouldn't necessarily take his word for it, he after all did not see the vehicle at all, and I am always wary of sweeping generalisations when it comes to cars.

To answer your question: Do you have any recourse against Green Flag? I'd say no. They acted as per information given, and made a decision based on the facts they had. I would however write a strong letter, especially if you suspect they are being misled by the garage, as they should be made aware of that.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Your qualified LDV mechanic may say one thing, but I have had so many contradicting mechanic reports over the years that I wouldn't necessarily take his word for it, he after all did not see the vehicle at all, and I am always wary of sweeping generalisations when it comes to cars.

A valid point, but I would add that if the minibus was also LDV, then the mechanic probably knows what he is talking about.

When a cam belts expires, engine damage is only caused if the paths of the pistons and the valves interfere with each other. If the engine design is such that there is no such interference, there should be no such damage. I would expect an LDV trained mechanic to know whether this were the case for this engine

[Conniff]

Agree with the above. Some engines are safe engines in that the valves do not contact with the pistons and a mechanic trained on those engines would know that.

[Bookworm]

Maybe so, but that is irrelevant. There could have been any other amount of problems which GF didn't convey to OP, probably because the person at the other end of the phone had little or no technical knowledge, and a lot of things would have got lost in translation. The mechanic to whom OP spoke in this country is only going by the one thing he was told, eg the cambelt. From then, he says to OP: "Oh, that wouldn't have caused engine damage". But what if that wasn't the only problem?

What I am trying to say is that without seeing the engine himself, the qualified mechanic can not decide whether there was engine damage or not, be it related to cambelt or not.

The question was "does OP have a recourse against Green Flag?" The answer would be "no", IMO, for the reasons described in my previous post. The mechanic comment was merely an add-on and not the decisive argument.

[Conniff]

By Bookworm

The question was "does OP have a recourse against Green Flag?" The answer would be "no", IMO, for the reasons described in my previous post. The mechanic comment was merely an add-on and not the decisive argument.

I think that would depend on the t's and c's I think he should have a read to see if there is a lower limit on the value of the vehicle before they will bring it home or be able to say 'it is uneconomical to do so'.
If it only says words to the effect that we will recover your vehicle for a prescribed premium then they should bring it home irrespective of the value.

Without knowing the vehicle, the minimum the mechanic would have to do to check for engine damage is to turn the engine over using a spanner on the front pulley to feel if it locks at any point or remove the valve/cam cover and check visualy by again turning it over. If this engine is indeed a 'safe' engine, then they couldn't have done either, so the price quoted would be wrong as it would only require the replacement of the cam belt to get it running again.

I think the first thing to do is to check with those in the know home here to see if damage would or would not have taken place and make his decision on what to do next dependant on their answer.

[Bookworm]

Sorry, no.

Faced with that bill be had no choice to scrap the vehicle as GF decided it wasnt worth enough to repatriate

1) OP chose not to get the vehicle repaired in Portugal. Remember the cost of repairs is down to OP, not GF.

2) GF chose not to repat car because cost of repat would have been higher than vehicle market value.

The only recourse OP has is if he can show that market value of vehicle in the UK was in fact higher than it would have cost to repat the vehicle.

OP decided to scrap vehicle rather than pay for repairs of € 2500, which would indicate that vehicle value was lower or close to this (although this is conjecture on my behalf, I admit). € 2500 = £1750, +/-. The last time I organised a car repat from abroad, over 10 years ago, it would have cost close to or more than that already then. Therefore, I think OP would have a hard time showing GF was negligent there.

Was GF negligent in taking the garage's word for it about the damage? Not really, as it isn't really their concern. They organised for tow to nearest garage, as per T&Cs, and in fact, the T&Cs clearly state that the garage carrying out the work will be acting as OP's agent for repair work.

In short, GF's responsability lies solely in:
- organising roadside assistance (which they did)
- organising repat, IF the vehicle's UK value exceeds the cost of repat.

Without knowing the age and condition of the minibus, it is all guesswork, of course.

[Conniff]

Under those circumstances and the more detailed explanation, I see why you are saying this. I was assuming this was an insurance type of situation (not having used one myself), which, of course, it is not.
I have to agree with you BW, it looks like they have done all that is required under the recovery service and it was up to the OP to get a proper diagnosis, and quote, and to come to an arrangement for the repairs with the garage it was taken to or take it somewhere else.

He don't mention whether it is petol or diesel either which would make vast difference.

[Chesterexpress]

It is possible to get a car repatriated from most european countries for less than £250. Insurance companies do it all the time and know who to use etc.

[Bookworm]

Speaking from years of experience doing precisely that, I can categorically state that this is not the case.

Tow truck from Portugal to the UK + fuel + tolls + ferry crossing return + minibus + passengers one way will cost more than £250, I guarantee you. If GF have to ask their Portuguese counterparts to arrange the repat (which they will), the Portuguese assist co will charge a fee, and that alone is likely to be a couple of hundreds.

Yes, insurance companies do it all the time. Yes, they do know who to use. And it will cost a lot more than £250, unless a) the car can be driven back, b) the car is not far from the UK, c) the crossing takes place out of season, d) the assistco has their own network to organise vehicle repat.

[Chesterexpress]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Speaking from years of experience doing precisely that, I can categorically state that this is not the case.

Tow truck from Portugal to the UK + fuel + tolls + ferry crossing return + minibus + passengers one way will cost more than £250, I guarantee you. If GF have to ask their Portuguese counterparts to arrange the repat (which they will), the Portuguese assist co will charge a fee, and that alone is likely to be a couple of hundreds.

Yes, insurance companies do it all the time. Yes, they do know who to use. And it will cost a lot more than £250, unless a) the car can be driven back, b) the car is not far from the UK, c) the crossing takes place out of season, d) the assistco has their own network to organise vehicle repat.

Sorry but we are talking about repat of the vehicle only here, I imagine they had arranged a replacement car already for the OP to continue their holiday and get home.

You say speaking from years of experience in doing precisely that, yet in your previous post you say.

Originally Posted by Bookworm

The last time I organised a car repat from abroad, over 10 years ago, it would have cost close to or more than that already then.

As I stated it costs less than £250 to repatriate a vehicle from most european country, and the season doesn't come in to it regarding ferry crossings whatsoever and they don't often use a tow truck. Oh and I am talking with plenty of experience.

[Bookworm]

Yes? Years of experience doing that (eg organising vehicles repats - as well as medical repats, air ambulances, etc.), now no longer in that job, how is that contradictory?

And yes, we are talking of a minibus, non-drivable, so exactly how are you going to bring it back to the UK?

[Chesterexpress]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Yes? Years of experience doing that (eg organising vehicles repats - as well as medical repats, air ambulances, etc.), now no longer in that job, how is that contradictory?

And yes, we are talking of a minibus, non-drivable, so exactly how are you going to bring it back to the UK?

Times change and we are now 10 years on from when you did it last. Believe it or not the cost is nowhere near what it used to be, and also a lot easier to organise. The vast majority come back on transporters and are not towed or on the back of a breakdown truck. Therefore the cost is shared between anything from 6 to 12 vehicles. Anyway I don't wish to argue with you, I am just stating what the cost would be, as it is nowhere as expensive as most people imagine.

[Bookworm]

Good.

OP will just have to decide who to believe, should he ever come back.