Copyright in the Workplace

[Tezcatlipoca]

Right, although it might not seem relevant to the thread at first, it's probably important that I give you some background stuff:

Let's say that Tez was employed by a national company - let's call them company A - as their Network and IT Manager. All went well and Tez, needless to say, was astoundingly good at his job. Now let's say that Tez's company got taken over by another company - company B - under...'questionable' circumstances. By questionable, I mean that one director sold company A out from under everyone's feet for their personal gain. No, this is not a disgruntled opinion on Tez's part; this is simply clinical fact. Indeed, there is current High Court action by the other directors of company A against company B to get the takeover declared illegal and reversed. There have been four hearings so far, but due to the ponderous nature of good old British Justice, this action is going to drag on well into 2009.

Until the court action is finished, company B, effectively, is Tez's employer. However, since we are now a satellite office of company B and using their systems, Tez's job has vanished (the old company A's Server has been seized and moved to the head office of company B). To make things even more convoluted, there is an order from the High Court (which I've read), that states that company B is not allowed to reduce the salary of any employee of the old company A, nor - with the one exception of if they're engaged in actual criminal activity - dismiss, make redundant or otherwise finish the employment of any old company A employee. They must also continue to pay us our full salaries.

So we essentially have a situation where we are twiddling our thumbs, being paid full salary, and being given menial tasks to do by company B until the High Court judgements are concluded.

Finally in the background section, now let's say that Tez was recently in a near fatal road accident. Your loveable Tez is thankfully alright, but the result is that I'm working from home, still on full salary, but that every interaction I have with company B now has the potential to be covered by the Disability Discrimination Act.


Right, background over and on to the point of the thread. Tez has been handed a project to write, from scratch, an entire application that can be used by a small team of company B to make their life easier. This application is desperately needed by them, and a technical request well within my abilities...

...however, it is a programming project that has absolutely nothing to do with my original job description. Equally, I am not contracted - either as a freelance individual or as Court enforced employee - to carry out this project for company B; they have simply said 'we have to employ you, here's a project to do'.

So, and "finally the point of the thread!" I hear you cry, Tez is curious as to where this places him with regards to copyright. I have written most of the project already, by hand, using my own code. I'm not employed as a programmer, but I am - by court order - employed by company B.
Now this project is starting to look, frankly, like quite an impressive, professional piece of work; so much so that I'm slightly reticent to hand all my hard work over at the end.

Does Tez, as the author of the program, retain the copyright (and, by extension, the right to demand further payment from company B for it), or does it all go to company B (who are effectively asking to get a full program they've needed for a long time and will massively assist their business) for free?

Any thoughts?

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

[flyingdoc]

from what I understand of copyright law (and as a programmer who has spent the last 2 years of his life developing a PHP system for his company) any rights, on intellectual property generated whilst in the employ of a company are the property of the employer as they paid for its development.

As an aside - and from 1 coder to another - what you coding and what in professional interest - dont want any secrets lol.

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[diskmandave]

The point here though is that what is being asked falls completely outside of the remit of Tez's contractual obligations and job description.

I do think that this would be far better served in the Employment Forum.

It's interesting that you've written the code already, by hand.
Was this during, "your own time", or within contracted hours...?
Either way, I think there is a strong case that the hand written code is Copyright to Tez.

I also think that a call to ACAS wouldn't go amiss either, get every bit of support that's available.

Best of luck with it! - Dave.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by flyingdoc

As an aside - and from 1 coder to another - what you coding and what in professional interest - dont want any secrets lol.

It's an advanced call logging system for a helpline team, written in VB6 and hooked up to an SQL server at the back-end; nothing really that flash in programming terms, but then I'm a Network and Web-Development monkey, not an application programmer.
Still, it's more than adequate for the requirements of the end users.

Re: copyright, I suspect you're correct. the only real question I had - and hence the reason for the whole background - is that none of company A's employees (including me) are actually contracted to company B; they're currently just under a direct order from the High Court to employ us and pay us.

Of course, if the company A directors loose, which is entirely possible, then we will become the proper employees of company B.

Originally Posted by diskmandave

It's interesting that you've written the code already, by hand. Was this during, "your own time", or within contracted hours...?

Well, to be honest, I've written it up already as my current disabled status means that I'm stuck at home for long periods. This project has thus become something of a creative way to fill several of my hours. Because I find it fun, it's actually being developed in both own time and contracted hours, although as far as company B is aware, it's all done in contracted hours.

Originally Posted by diskmandave

I also think that a call to ACAS wouldn't go amiss either, get every bit of support that's available.

Oh, trust me, we - the old staff - are very familiar with old ACAS at the moment. As well as trying to defend their behaviour in the High Court, company B is also subject to grievance processes from every staff member. Basically, they took a calculated risk and it's blown up in their face.


I think, on reflection, the best approach is to finish the project and hand it over, but retain a copy for myself for the future (since I can easily strip out the logos and other copyrighted material from it and use it as a generic program for the benefit of any future employer).

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

[MARTIN3030]

thread moved here

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by MARTIN3030

thread moved here

Thanks.

[monkeychicken]

Two points here
If you're on sick leave, they can't make you work can they? If that is the case, surely all the program has been written in your own time.

Secondly, you put any sort of code, and if in the future, the program crashes, they may have to pay you to correct it, cant you? Perhaps the program could be fixed by others, but where would you stand in such?

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by monkeychicken

Two points here
If you're on sick leave, they can't make you work can they? If that is the case, surely all the program has been written in your own time.

They can't force me if I'm off sick, no; but I have given them an order to return me to work at full salary, since the nature of my work means I can carry it out quite capably from my home PC. They have a legal obligation - even before you consider the High Court order - to make every effort to accomodate me, so I am working from my home PC. The program request was made after this return to work was agreed.

Originally Posted by monkeychicken

Secondly, you put any sort of code, and if in the future, the program crashes, they may have to pay you to correct it, cant you? Perhaps the program could be fixed by others, but where would you stand in such?

Well, this depends on two factors. First, and most important, is that the final program will be compiled prior to release. This is standard practice with most programs, and means that company B will not be able to access any of the code behind the program (I will retain my uncompiled version, of course). They may demand the original code in addition to the functioning program, they may not.

The second factor, and assuming they request - and get - the complete code, is that even if they get somebody who is familiar with the program code I wrote in, only I know the actual code intimately. Anyone else coming in would be looking at weeks of detective work, trying to follow which bit does what and how one part links to another, before even considering rewriting any of my code.

[patdavies]

Basically, if you use company time to develop such a program, they own the copyright.

What you have to decide here is actually nothing whatsoever to do with either copyright or ownership.

How useful to you is that program if you were to leave the company (ie is it saleable outside)?

You essentially have two choices:

1) Complete and handover the program and its copyright
2) Refuse to complete, or deliver something very buggy, because you are not employed as an application developer and "that's the best I can do outside my job sphere". In this case, your code 'jottings' are your copyright.

[p_cas]

The copyright is with your employer, it doesnt matter if it's A or B, not you as they are paying you to do it. The only way it could be yours if you already had the programme and wished to licence it to them.

All the other (background) stuff is pretty much irrelevant.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by p_cas

All the other (background) stuff is pretty much irrelevant.

In this case, no it isn't. Remember that I - like my other colleagues - are not, in the ordinary sense, employed by company B. There are no contracts and no personnel files (they are all 'in limbo', being held by company A's barristers). There is only a High Court order that company B must act as our employer, giving us work and paying us, whilst these cases are dragging on.

Regardless, I think I've pretty much got my answer now; that company B does own the program I've written for them, but the actual code is mine intellectually (viz. as long as I strip out the text and logos that relate specifically to company B, the program structure remains mine, and can be re-employed in the service of another company, should I choose).

Copyright law, especially in the UK, is an interestingly grey area, unless ownership is expressly outlined in some form of contract.