Disciplinary while under a doctor's note

[c_allen]

i've been called into work to " review my comtinued employment":o
i've now been off work for 9 days with vertigo, insomnia, and have just been told i probably have skin cancer,
i need to know were i stand in terms of employment law? in my contract it say's i may be asked to see the company nurse if off sick, but nothing about this, surely i have a right to be ill, and a right not to be hassled while i'm ill.
any pointers will be helpfull as to relevent law, hse regs that sort of thing.
thanx c_allen

[paulgmb]

Hi C,
does the letter state its a disciplinary hearing or just a meeting to discuss your sickness? Have you had lots of other periods of sick leave?
Its not unreasonable for an employer to ask you to come to a meeting but after 9 days is highly unusual. Usualyy they would ask you to go to occupational health first and await there report. I think you should ask the company what the meeting is about, what status it is and then seek medical advice whether you are fit to attend or not.
Regards,
Paul.

[c_allen]

i have had 2 previous periods of sickness, both only a couple of days max, none within the last 6 months, the letter just says " the purpose of the meeting is to discuss your future employment with the company", This letter was hand delivered to my home by a supervisor! i do know that it is company policy to start disiplinary proceedure if you are sick for more than 4.5% in a 12 month period, i think i've had a total of 12 to 14 days sick in the last 12 months. It is also company policy to have me ring in EVERY morning between 7.30am and 7.45am, to let them know that i won't be in, and to be made to feel that my job is at risk,,, i feel i must have some rights to have some peace while at home ill especially when you concider the fact that i am being treated for insomnia, I know i am unfit to understand and defend myself at this meeting as i've not slept for more than 3 hours in 1 go for over 2 weeks, i could really do to know if i am protected from these "company policies" be any over ruling laws or regulations, i cannot help what has happened to me, i have been to see my doctor 4 times in the last 14 days, i been to the hospital once, and i am waiting another appointment in the next few days.
the meeting is thursday mornig at 9am so any fast help or advice is welcome,
i fully intend to go into the meeting with my union rep, ( useless!!!!) and tell them that i feel i am being harrassed while in a unfit state and have no intention of allowing the meeting to go ahead until i'm in a fit state to understand and defend myself again anything that is said, do i have the right to do this?

[paulgmb]

I would speak to your union rep and ask them to get the meeting postponed until you are fit to attend. Make sure this is done before the day so you are not made out to be unresonable.
This meeting seems to be outside of any procedure. To discuss your future employment within the company?! I've seen these sort of letters before and before you know it they turn into a formal disciplinary meeting without any notice!
If the company request it, get a letter from your doctor saying you are unfit. As for having to ring in every day, surely if your doctor has signed you off for a period of time then this is sufficent to say you will not be into work until either the note expires or you have a diffferent note/letter saying you are fit to return.
Regards,
Paul.

[c_allen]

i've already tried to say that, about the ringing in everyday, but they just tell me it's co policy and if i don't they will have to reconsider my employment, for not following co policy,
the meeting is tomorrow morning so i've no chance to cancel it,
the union is ABSOLUTELY USELESS,
they have employed over 150 in the last 10 months, 50% have left the company either through dismissals or can't take the bullying attitude of the company as a whole, 1 girl had been there for 3 months and was taken into hospital with a serious chest infection, after 3 days sick she recieved a message, by way of a friend you also works there, saying that if she was not back in work by the next day she would be sacked, she would not defend herself so she signed herself out of hospital and went in,

this is a big company, with the best pay in the area so no one wants to lose thier jobs here, and they know that, so they seem to be able to do what they like,
so i really need to know about anything that could overrule co policy, regs, common law, human rights act, ect

[paulgmb]

The only test usually on company policies in when you get to tribunal where if you can prove that the company hasn't followed good practice which is usually the ACAS guidelines on disciplinary procedures or their policies are in breech of employment law usually because they have not been updated then the tribunal will normally increase any award you might receive.
I appreciate that this does not help you in your current situation. All you can do is argue what is fair and reasonable at this stage. You could not be expected to call in everyday if you were in a coma but according to your companies policy you would be in breech. That might be an extreme example but similarly if your doctor has said you need complete rest and should have no contact with your employer because this might agrovate a condition then I think you could argue that you were taking medical advice by not phoning in.
The law as I understand it stipulates that you have to send in a doctors certificate to cover periods of sickness absence. Ringing in everyday is only a requirement of your company and the test at tribunal would be whether it was deemed to be reasonable.
Do you get re-imbersed for the cost of the calls, do you receive sick pay and what would they do for example if someone didn't have a phone?
A company will usually only dismiss if they think they could justify their actions at tribunal.
Regards,
Paul.

[c_allen]

well i went in, i told my union rep that i didn't feel upto having this meeting at this time as mi sickness leaves me disorientated, and lack of sllep leaves me unable to understand things as i should,,,,,, so of course the meeting went ahead, mostly i just kept saying that i don't feel well enough to be put through this, the manager said that the meeting wouldn't have any thing to do with my furture at the company, they only needed to talk to me so they know whats what with my health,,,,,,, well i recieved a letter today that says " following the meeting which WAS to decide my future at the company, my contract is terminated as of the 3rd july!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[paulgmb]

You need to contact your union as a matter of urgency and submit an appeal.
From what you have told us you have a very good case. I hope your Rep took minutes?

[c_allen]

OK i'm going to appeal, on the grounds that;

a, in the letter it say i've had a total of 18 days sick, well the most i can find is 17, and 2 of those " day" are from me being sent home part way through a shift, through being unfit for work, so i feel that 15 or 16 is the correct figure.

b, i was not given sufficient notice of a disaplinary hearing.

c, i was not in good enough health for the hearing, and was forced into the meeting, even though i had explained this and requested a later date.

d, i was lied to by both production managers, they both said it was a meeting to discuss my health, and did not have any bearing on my employment.

e, i was not given the right to have present the union rep of my choose, he was on a different shift, the rep i had has only been a rep for 2 months, i did say this and i said i wanted a rep with more expirience.

f, the company policy of having me ring in every morning at 7,30am has played a role in lenthening the amount of time i have been off, manly that it has stopped me from getting the amount of sleep i need when you consider the fact that i have been diagnosed and i am being treated for insomnia.....

OK thats all i can think of for the moment, i've had no sleep again because of worrying about this and everything else so,
have i missed anything?
should i leave anything out?
i'm thinking that, surely they can't do this while i'm under a doctors note?

they've not given me any notice, does this mean i've been sacked? if so then they have done this now in order to aviod paying sick pay?

is at possible to start greivence proceedure against the 2 managers who lied to me, i was still employed by them.

what regs and laws should i be reading to get the facts?

and i'm thinking of sending a subject access request, is this worth while?


HELP please

[c_allen]

I could also do with some help with the wording of a Subject Access Request.

[c_allen]

OK this is the very rough draft of my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request),,,,,,,,

Data Protection Act 1998Subject Access Request

Works clock number; ******

I was employed by your company from 13/08/2007, until 03/07/2008.
Please supply me with all information your company has about myself and my work history with your company
By all, I mean everything stored either on computer, on paper, screen notes, or any other material which makes any reference to myself or my work, In particular, anything which has any bearing on my dismissal from employment, this includes the minutes of the meeting between Mr *****, Mr M ***** and myself on 3/07/2008, all internal memos, e-mail, or written, typed notes letters or anything.
I also request a copy of the employees hand book, which your company has seen fit to withhold from not only myself but all new employees.
Additionally, where there has been any event in my work history over this period which has required intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that intervention, or other evidence of that intervention in relation to my work history with you, If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Given the nature of this request and the time limits which are in force, namely appeal process, employment tribunal, and the time restrictions applied to these processes I hope you will treat this matter a very urgent.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.
I would be happy to collect the Data from your **** street site.





any thoughts?????

[c_allen]

it might also be helpful to you if i give you a bit more back ground,
firstly my work record is excellent, in my last 6 months reviews i have scored 5 for everything, 1 being poor 5 being perfect. I know for a fact that my superisor is more than happy with me in all aspects of my work/attitude.
i have not had a sick day for 6 months, if you discount this period of sickness then you must say that i am an asset to the company.
i have had a run in with 1 of the managers about health and safty, namely in winter we were required to use temp access to the factory, this access was poorly lit with cars heavygoods vehicles forklifts and work vehicles driving through the area, i nearly got hit by a HGV 1 morning, so i saw the H&S rep, and was told to request a high vis vest, i made repeated requsts for 1 but hadn't recieved 1 after 3 weeks and dozens of verbal requests, so when i saw a spare 1 laying in a scrap pallet i put it on, within 1 hour i was called into the managers office and told to remove it, i refused quoting what the H&S rep had said to me, over the next 30 minutes i was called in twice more, the end result was i had to give up and give it to him as the H&S rep said that i didn't need 1, of course i went on a rant about my safety and how i would claim if i was ever hit,,,,, the manager involved was the main man at this meeting,,,,, i've got to wonder if this had any bearing on my dismissal.

[c_allen]

Ok this is what i'm sending in by way of appeal;,,,,


Dear Sir,
I wish to appeal the decision to dismiss me, the reasons for this appeal are;

1, I did not receive fair notice of the disciplinary hearing.

2, I asked for Mr * ***** to accompany me, I said that I only wanted him, as the other rep is very inexperienced, I was told that the only representative I could have was *********, (because ******* was on the late shift), who only has 2 months experience as a union rep, so I did not have fair representation.[/font]

3, When I spoke to ********* I told him that I was in no fit state to have this meeting because I have been diagnosed with Vertigo which makes me feel dizzy and disorientated, affecting my concentration and ability to think. I have also been diagnosed with insomnia and only had 2 hours sleep the night before, and no more than 2 or 3 hours each night for the previous several weeks, which also effects the way I think and understand questions as I’m sure you can understand. I asked Mr ****** to ask Mr G **** & Mr M ******** to cancel the meeting on this basis until I was in a fit state to understand and answer any questions to the best of my ability, which I was incapable of doing at that time. After Mr ******* came back to speak to me he said they wouldn’t and that the meeting was not a disciplinary hearing but it was to find out about my health and to see if there was any way they could help me come back to work! Mr **** repeated this to me when he came into the room. I now find out that this isn’t the case and it was a disciplinary hearing![/font]

4, I repeatedly said I was unfit for this meeting as I could not understand what I was expected to say to the questions I was asked, Mr **** said to me that I was “making sense to him”, I feel that this comment was flippant and sarcastic in intent. I feel very strongly that Mr **** was doing his best to get me to say or do something wrong, he kept asking the same question again and again, it must have been obvious I was getting more confused and agitated by the minute, it was more like a police interview than a “meeting to discuss my health”, by this point I was shaking quite badly and I feel that Mr **** was intimidating me on purpose. I was very uncomfortable with the whole of the meeting and felt as if I was being bullied into having the meeting at that time and I was being bullied into answering questions I did not understand. I must have stated that I was not in a fit state at least 10 times, one other thing I should raise at this point is that I am being tested for skin cancer, I did not mention this at the meeting because it is undiagnosed at the moment. I only mention this so you can understand the frame of mind I have been in recently. It was also pointed out by Mr ********* that the disciplinary procedure was normally only used for people who abuse sick days, Mr **** agreed with this and said that my sickness was obviously genuine.

5, I also know that your company policy of have me ring in every morning at 7.30 am is a contributing factor in the amount of time I have been off, I am being treated for insomnia after all.

6, Why do some people receive warnings for sickness but I have been dismissed. Why have I not received any warnings that the amount of sickness is unacceptable, and while I agree that 16 or 17 days in almost 11 months is unacceptable, you must also agree that vertigo, insomnia and cancer is unavoidable.

7, There is also reason for me to believe that the amount of days off stated is wrong by at least 1 day if not 2 days, I also dispute the stated 4 occasions of sickness. And I have been employed for almost 11 months not the 10 stated in the letter, I strongly believe that these 3 errors have been made to make the situation look worse than it really is. Therefore the decision has been made based on incorrect facts.[/font]

9, If you discount this period of sickness then I have an excellent work record, ask my supervisor his opinion, or just take a look at my weekly assessments and you will see that I am an asset to the company.[/font]

10, I have followed company procedure to the letter, I am also following all the relevant HSE regulations, I am doing this by not putting myself and others at risk by me coming into work with vertigo and almost no sleep. I think you can see how much of a danger to myself and others I would be, also the quality of my work would suffer, tired, dizzy and confused people make mistakes. I have doctors notes covering the period of sickness so far, I have rung in every morning by 7.30am, so I fail to see how the decision to dismiss me has been made.[/font]

11, It also appears that I have been dismissed for Gross Misconduct, How is being ill Gross Misconduct?[/font]
I found this on the government website;[/font]
86 Rights of employer and employee to minimum notice [/font]
](1) The notice required to be given by an employer to terminate the contract of employment of a person who has been continuously employed for one month or more.
(a) is not less than one weeks notice if his period of continuous employment is less than two years, [/font]
What is wrongful dismissal?[/font]
This is a breach of contract in the way you were dismissed (for example, without being given proper notice or without following the procedures in your contract). You can take action in the same way as for any breach of contract.[/font]
If you've been dismissed without notice or constructively dismissed[/font]
Your employer has the right to dismiss you without notice (summary dismissal) if you've committed gross misconduct. Similarly, you have the right to resign, with or without notice, when your employer is in serious breach of contract (constructive dismissal).[/font]
If you think your employer had no grounds for summary dismissal, you can bring an Employment Tribunal claim (Industrial Tribunal claim in Northern Ireland) for breach of contract. You can also consider a claim for unfair dismissal.[/font]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndCon ditions

So those are all the reasons I can think of in my present state of ill health and tiredness, they may not be all, and I reserve the right to amend these at a later date.[/font]

I would like to add that I do not want to be off work, if it was at all possible, I would never take sick days, I have always given 100% to your company and I am shocked by the way I have been treated and the way this dismissal seems to have been manufactured. I went away from that meeting in shock, I was shaking so badly I could hardly walk, I was sick on the way home, and twice more at home, that meeting should never have gone ahead at that time.[/font]
I would also like to start Grievance Procedure against Mr G ****, the reasons are obvious but I will list them below.[/font]
1, misrepresenting the purpose of the meeting.[/font]
2, denying me the right to fair representation.[/font]
3, denying me the right to postpone the meeting on the grounds of ill health.[/font]
4, bullying.[/font]
5, intimidation.[/font]
Once again these are all I can think of in my present health and I reserve the right to add more.
Yours Faithfully

[c_allen]

i don't know whats going on with all the extra bit above ( FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
), sorry just try to ignore it

[c_allen]

well i hope the letter is ok because it's in now anyway

[c_allen]

Hello is there anybody out there? just nod if you can hear me?? I'm feeling uncomfortably numb-_-
Please someone just give me an opinion, even if it is an uninformed opinion. I am not really someone that normally begs but i am now, i'm feeling unsure, which is very unusual for me:o. I know that this is a self help forum, but this is a totally new expierience for me and in my present state i don't know if i'm right in thinking what i am.

thanx