Advise on a grievance procedure/referance, do I stand a chance?

[masked_firefly]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a serious problem currently ongoing with an ex employer, I dont really know where to start.

I left my ex employer to start a new job last month, fine and dandy apart from i walked out in the middle of my last shift. Dispite the company knowing i had back problems/standing issues they refused to let me sit on a checkout for my last day, but put me on filling and moving stock.

Anyway, Join new employer settling in fine, and then get called to the front office. I basically get told there and then that due to an unsatisfactory reference they have revoked the offer of employement, I am whisked off out of the building .
I get my hands on the referance (issued by ex employer) and most of it is complete lies and absoutly shocking.
For example my manager who filled it in stated that I had recieved displince for 'Till shorts' (in other words stealing from tills!), I was unrealiable, among other things. She also listed all of my displinary procedures, and not just the current that my new employer had been asking for.
Now I understand any displinary does look bad, but most of them were for sickness/injurys/time off. (Ex employer as a rule about if your off a % of time you get whisked into a dispinary).
Anyway from the moment i saw the referance I knew I had to stand up for myself as basically the manager had spun my new company a pack of lies.

I followed a grievance procedure through my company and also have full support of the union i paid into whilst working with my ex employer.

I am still awaiting any written decision on what my ex-employer intends to do on the situation. I already know that the manager who wrote my referance shouldnt have (it should have been forwarded to personell) and of course there is the serious issue of the accusaction of theft, which of course i didnt commit.
I feel they have been extremely sloppy. I am now approaching 3 weeks from placing in my grievance. I am constantly (every 3/4 days) on the phone asking for an update. My personell manager, told me she would keep me in the loop, but after hearing nothing from her for a period of 4 days found out that she was away on company business, and that her manager was out of the country. I then found out (through my union rep) that infact she was away for two weeks and not the one i was told.

I have asked the company if they can re-instate me in my position, if not to provide me with a 'accurate' referance, and some kind of compensasion for the fact that basically down to a spiteful manager (yes we had are differences, but i thought we got along ok!) i lost a full time, well paid job.

I have already asked my union about taking things further to a court or a tribual (not sure which!?). Do people think i stand much chance?. We have asked others and they all think i do on the grounds of defrabrication of character.

ANY help and advice on the situation would be great.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by masked_firefly

I left my ex employer to start a new job last month, fine and dandy apart from i walked out in the middle of my last shift. Dispite the company knowing i had back problems/standing issues they refused to let me sit on a checkout for my last day, but put me on filling and moving stock.

Did you let them know why you were leaving early? Was anything said?

Anyway, Join new employer settling in fine, and then get called to the front office. I basically get told there and then that due to an unsatisfactory reference they have revoked the offer of employement, I am whisked off out of the building .

When you were offered the job, were you told that it was conditional on them receiving satisfactory references - either verbally or in writing?

I get my hands on the referance (issued by ex employer) and most of it is complete lies and absoutly shocking.

Precisely the reason why references are supposed to be limited to start/finish dates and a simple "would you re-employ this person?"

For example my manager who filled it in stated that I had recieved displince for 'Till shorts' (in other words stealing from tills!), I was unrealiable, among other things. She also listed all of my displinary procedures, and not just the current that my new employer had been asking for.

When issued, were you advised how long any warnings issued would remain on your file for? Had this time passed? Were you ever the subject of an investigation into till discrepancies?

Now I understand any displinary does look bad, but most of them were for sickness/injurys/time off. (Ex employer as a rule about if your off a % of time you get whisked into a dispinary).
Anyway from the moment i saw the referance I knew I had to stand up for myself as basically the manager had spun my new company a pack of lies.

And you MUST follow this through - if any of it is untrue, then you have a case for defamation, and negligence on the part of the ex-employer in providing a false or misleading reference. The employer has a duty to report any FACTS which may be relevant, such as acts of dishonesty which have been investigated and where you have been made aware of them, but cannot report mere suspicious or matters which you had never been made aware of. The ex-employer may be liable for damages to compensate for financial losses caused by their actions.

I followed a grievance procedure through my company and also have full support of the union i paid into whilst working with my ex employer.

You should make full use of the Union facilities, including a proper legal consultation - this is likely to involve professional legal services at some stage - far better if you can get proper advice at an early stage.

I am still awaiting any written decision on what my ex-employer intends to do on the situation. I already know that the manager who wrote my referance shouldnt have (it should have been forwarded to personell) and of course there is the serious issue of the accusaction of theft, which of course i didnt commit.
I feel they have been extremely sloppy. I am now approaching 3 weeks from placing in my grievance. I am constantly (every 3/4 days) on the phone asking for an update. My personell manager, told me she would keep me in the loop, but after hearing nothing from her for a period of 4 days found out that she was away on company business, and that her manager was out of the country. I then found out (through my union rep) that infact she was away for two weeks and not the one i was told.

Be very mindful that if taken to a Tribunal there are strict time limits of 3 months (although it may be extended to a maximum of 6 months). It may mean that to speed things up a Letter Before Action might be in order - again, be guided by proper legal advice in this.

I have asked the company if they can re-instate me in my position, if not to provide me with a 'accurate' referance, and some kind of compensasion for the fact that basically down to a spiteful manager (yes we had are differences, but i thought we got along ok!) i lost a full time, well paid job.

I have already asked my union about taking things further to a court or a tribual (not sure which!?). Do people think i stand much chance?. We have asked others and they all think i do on the grounds of defrabrication of character.

Defamation is notoriously difficult to pursue, and can be quite costly, but there is substantial case law with which to proceed with a Tribunal case against your ex-employer if what they have written is clearly untrue. Get professional advise as soon as possible.

...

[masked_firefly]

Hey thanks for the help...

1. When you were offered the job, were you told that it was conditional on them receiving satisfactory references - either verbally or in writing?

It was mentioned, in writing in a form that I recieved with about two days to go before my start date. I had recieved verbal confirmation that i had been successful in getting the post 4 weeks before i actually started. They did not contact me until 5 days before i started to recieve permisson to obtain referances, they were sloppy, and it therefore cost me.

2. When issued, were you advised how long any warnings issued would remain on your file for? Had this time passed? Were you ever the subject of an investigation into till discrepancies?

Yes I was advised how long the warnings would stay on my file, and in all but one of the cases the time had passed (by quite a few months). One was literally border line when i left the company (by a matter of days). I was never once questioned, or investigated for till discrepancies.

3. And you MUST follow this through - if any of it is untrue, then you have a case for defamation, and negligence on the part of the ex-employer in providing a false or misleading reference. The employer has a duty to report any FACTS which may be relevant, such as acts of dishonesty which have been investigated and where you have been made aware of them, but cannot report mere suspicious or matters which you had never been made aware of. The ex-employer may be liable for damages to compensate for financial losses caused by their actions.

Would revalant facts include a manager personal opinions?, for example saying that i was unrealiable?. I was always early for shifts sometimes by more than 15 minutes. She knew on employing me that i was limited to only contractual hours because i relied on public transport/taxis to get me to and from work and couldnt 'come in' at a drop of a hat.
How would they calcuaate the financal losses?, would it go from what i would have earned with them? or with my new employer?.

4. You should make full use of the Union facilities, including a proper legal consultation - this is likely to involve professional legal services at some stage - far better if you can get proper advice at an early stage.

I plan too, I have already spoken to my union rep who along with her area manager have both said i have an extremely good case. She has already told me that I am entitled to a legal session, I just need to wait for the companies intinal response before I go any further.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by masked_firefly

Hey thanks for the help...

1. When you were offered the job, were you told that it was conditional on them receiving satisfactory references - either verbally or in writing?

It was mentioned, in writing in a form that I recieved with about two days to go before my start date. I had recieved verbal confirmation that i had been successful in getting the post 4 weeks before i actually started. They did not contact me until 5 days before i started to recieve permisson to obtain referances, they were sloppy, and it therefore cost me.

OK - however sloppy, the fact that this was a conditional job offer means that it is unlikely that you would have any claim for breach of contract against the new employer.

2. When issued, were you advised how long any warnings issued would remain on your file for? Had this time passed? Were you ever the subject of an investigation into till discrepancies?

Yes I was advised how long the warnings would stay on my file, and in all but one of the cases the time had passed (by quite a few months). One was literally border line when i left the company (by a matter of days). I was never once questioned, or investigated for till discrepancies.

So the fact that the till discrepancies were mentioned at all is factually untrue, defamatory (for by definition you are being labelled a suspected thief) and malicious in its nature. Mentioning any time spent warnings is further designed to damage your chances of employment for they should have been removed from your record. They could be mentioned to a prospective employer but only in exercising due diligence in cases of dishonesty or other behaviour likely to prove damaging to the new employer if repeated.

3. And you MUST follow this through - if any of it is untrue, then you have a case for defamation, and negligence on the part of the ex-employer in providing a false or misleading reference. The employer has a duty to report any FACTS which may be relevant, such as acts of dishonesty which have been investigated and where you have been made aware of them, but cannot report mere suspicious or matters which you had never been made aware of. The ex-employer may be liable for damages to compensate for financial losses caused by their actions.

Would revalant facts include a manager personal opinions?, for example saying that i was unrealiable?. I was always early for shifts sometimes by more than 15 minutes. She knew on employing me that i was limited to only contractual hours because i relied on public transport/taxis to get me to and from work and couldnt 'come in' at a drop of a hat.
How would they calcuaate the financal losses?, would it go from what i would have earned with them? or with my new employer?.

Personal opinions are never relevant to a reference. A reference should be absolutely factual, restricted only to confirming dates of employment, whether the employer would re-engage you in the future and any facts which, if omitted, could leave the ex-employer open to a claim of negligence if you were to do something damaging to the new employer which the former employer should have warned them that you had done in the past - for example if you were dismissed for theft but were given a glowing reference only then to steal from the new employer. Remember that this has to be factual - even if they were keeping an eye on you for regular till shortages they may not mention this in a reference as you were unaware of an (incomplete and therefore unproven) investigation. The company is liable for the actions of its manager too, so they can't move them on and absolve themselves of responsibility. Reliability is only an issue if you were regularly late or absent and disciplined, or did not carry out your contracted duties. It does not mean that you were unreliable because you could not work extra hours. If you fulfilled your contract satisfactorily then you were not unreliable. There is a difference between 'reliable' and 'flexible'. Actual losses would be calculated against lost earnings from when you were forced to leave the new job to when you are able to get a new one, loss of notice, plus a consideration for loss of perks, bonuses (gym membership or other concessions). Age is also a factor in determining how long it might take to find another job.

4. You should make full use of the Union facilities, including a proper legal consultation - this is likely to involve professional legal services at some stage - far better if you can get proper advice at an early stage.

I plan too, I have already spoken to my union rep who along with her area manager have both said i have an extremely good case. She has already told me that I am entitled to a legal session, I just need to wait for the companies intinal response before I go any further.

Go for it and keep us informed as to how you get on!

...

[patdavies]

Good answers by Sidewinder.

However, 2 points.

1) you say that all warning bar one were spent at the time you left. The one that was current had days to go. Had it expired by the date that the reference was requested/written? If so, it also should not be mentioned. the clock on expiration does not stop because you leave.

2) all of your thread focusses on dealing with your old employer. What is being done about reinstating your job/offer once you can prove the reference to be false/malicious. Are you keeping your 'new' employer in the loop and are they holding the job for you.

[masked_firefly]

Originally Posted by patdavies

Good answers by Sidewinder.

However, 2 points.

1) you say that all warning bar one were spent at the time you left. The one that was current had days to go. Had it expired by the date that the reference was requested/written? If so, it also should not be mentioned. the clock on expiration does not stop because you leave.

2) all of your thread focusses on dealing with your old employer. What is being done about reinstating your job/offer once you can prove the reference to be false/malicious. Are you keeping your 'new' employer in the loop and are they holding the job for you.

Thanks,
I believe it was still valid when the referance was written, I understand that the clock on expiration doesnt stop because i left, however the others had long expired and therefore had no reason to be included.

Secondly unfortuatly my new employer pretty much told me there and then on the spot that because of the unsatisfactory refereance they had 'revoked' the offer of employement to myself.
When I went back to them to ask for a copy of the referance, they were extremely dismisive. They refused to talk about their decision any further, they were even very sharp about providing me with a copy of the referance. But eventually did.
My boyfriend has suggested that when we have prove that the company did provide malicous referance we will try writing to them, but seeming as it has already been three weeks i dont hold out much hope.