Twisted dismissal! (Fair or Unfair?)

Bigredbus · 27th May 2008, 18:15

Facts:
29/04 - Learned by colleague that I am about to get dismissed for gross misonduct. He gets the info straight from the union rep who gets it from the line manager.
07/05 - Investigative Interview by line manager (no time offered to prepare). Charges admitted.
07/05 - Suspended on full pay whilst awaiting hearing.
22/05 - Hearing. Dismissed for gross misconduct.
Present - Awaiting appeal.

I work(ed) for a large company. a) This company is suffering from direct impact of increased price of fuel, offseting buget by over £1.5M. b) New computer system in place for over 8 months. This system is capable of doing the job of several men. System reliability highly rated.

Line manager officially threatened me with disciplinary procedure in August 2007 following attendance problem. In October 2007, another instance of attendance recorded. No disciplinary action invoked. Up to present day, 8 instances of attendance recorded on file. No disciplinary action initiated after any instances.

Up to present day no similar case to set precedence (since December 2003). In 12 days 3 of us been dismissed on same charges when none before. Another 4 being investigated.

What are they playing at?

Help, please...

BeauBrummie · 27th May 2008, 18:26

Have the company given you written warnings for the previous disciplinary hearings.

If they have not, you may have a case for Unfair Dimissal.

You need to ask for a copy of the greivance procedure asap and therefore raise the issue officially. If this were to get to tribunal the info you have given so far suggests that the company have not followed the employment legislation and therefore would lose any case you brought to the table.

BB

Bigredbus · 27th May 2008, 18:39

Thanks BeauBrummie for your prompt answer... It is very much appreciated.

No written warning given following any occurrence.

Sidewinder · 27th May 2008, 21:32

So were you dismissed for poor attendance or a different matter?

Dismissal on the grounds of persistent absenteeism is vastly different to Gross Misconduct. The fact that they should have followed correct procedure is critical in either event, but the rules are slightly different in the case of GM.

Bigredbus · 27th May 2008, 22:16

Thanks for your comment Sidewinder...

No, dismissal isn't due to attendance but the gross miscondut is linked to attendance...

poppynurse · 28th May 2008, 10:52

I think we need more info/clarification.

Bigredbus · 28th May 2008, 11:19

The summary dismissal is on four charges (admitted) of falsifying duties/clocking. Same incidents have taken place in the past and the company decided to ignore them (related to colleagues and not me). Moreover, my record of attendance has been poor over the past 12 months (due to various personal reasons). Back in August 2007 my line-manager threatened me with disciplinary action if any similar incidence of attendance re-occured. October 2007, attendance incident, followed by another 7 incidences of the same nature. At no time the company took disciplinary action. In 6 years I have been working for them no disciplinary action has been taken against anyone on similar incidences, despite the fact that they were well aware of it all. Suddenly, they dismiss 3 of us on same charges and investigate another four...
Hope that helps...
Thanks for all your precious advice.

BeauBrummie · 28th May 2008, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigredbus

The summary dismissal is on four charges (admitted) of falsifying duties/clocking. Same incidents have taken place in the past and the company decided to ignore them (related to colleagues and not me). Moreover, my record of attendance has been poor over the past 12 months (due to various personal reasons). Back in August 2007 my line-manager threatened me with disciplinary action if any similar incidence of attendance re-occured. October 2007, attendance incident, followed by another 7 incidences of the same nature. At no time the company took disciplinary action. In 6 years I have been working for them no disciplinary action has been taken against anyone on similar incidences, despite the fact that they were well aware of it all. Suddenly, they dismiss 3 of us on same charges and investigate another four...
Hope that helps...
Thanks for all your precious advice.

I would say that you have a case for "Unfair Dismissal" the reasons that they have stated for your dismissal are not Gross Misconduct, at worst they are verbal and written warning offenses.

The company have not used the correct avenue of responses to your misdemeaners under Employment Legislation. I would certaily be asking for a copy of the companies greivance procedure as I posted in post 2. It does not matter that there are no precedents within your company they are not above the laid down procedures for disciplinary hearings and dismissals.

BB

BeauBrummie · 28th May 2008, 14:32

Just as footnote to my last post,

If this ever came to an Employment Tribunal, one of the first thing the tribnual would look at is "have the company followed legislation procedure"
If the answer to this is "no" then generally the tribunal would find in favour very quickly for the employee, you need to be seen to try to follow the employment laws and let the company make the mistakes.

BB

Bigredbus · 28th May 2008, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeauBrummie

the reasons that they have stated for your dismissal are not Gross Misconduct, at worst they are verbal and written warning offenses.

BB

Falsifying duty statements/clocking is, according to the company's disciplinary procedure, construed as gross misconduct and liable of summary dismissal...

What I am on about is that they have never invoked any procedure in the past. Neither on similar charges nor on any other. I am/was a supervisor and as such used to file reports about staff. I know by fact that they rarely invoked disciplinary action, left alone summarily dismissing. What I am trying to do is understand why they are taking drastic measures today when they had all the necessary evidence to dismiss staff on different charges a long time ago.

Their behaviour is inconsistent with the disciplinary procedure in place and inconsistent with their own intentions.

The reason for which they dismissed me is reasonable but the merits of the case are discussable and that is where I am coming in. They're trying to initiate a redundancy protocol without having to pay a penny for it, instead they're dismissing people by the dozen when it never happened before...

So... fair?... or unfair?

Sorry if i am rambling around. It has been a terrible 3 weeks period between knowing I would be dismissed and the day they pushed me off the cliff. Thank you for your help guys!

Weird Al Yankovic · 28th May 2008, 18:18

Hello

Where you state you falsified duties/clocking, could you elaborate please?

Did you finish early but clock off at a later time, for example?

How did you falsify your duties?

Regards

Bigredbus · 28th May 2008, 18:23

Thanks Weird Al Yankovic...

Hope that helps...

Arrived late, clocked on time...

Bigredbus · 28th May 2008, 20:23

*Addendum*

Been reading the company's 'Disciplinary and Attendance at Work Procedure' booklet and it states the following...
'This procedure does not form part of any employee's terms and conditions of employment, except as required by law'

I have no written statement of the terms and conditions related to my employment... I will write to them asking for mine... but in the meantime could anyone have the kindness of sheding some light on the paragraphe above, please.

Thank you!

BeauBrummie · 28th May 2008, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigredbus

The reason for which they dismissed me is reasonable but the merits of the case are discussable and that is where I am coming in. They're trying to initiate a redundancy protocol without having to pay a penny for it, instead they're dismissing people by the dozen when it never happened before...

So... fair?... or unfair?

If you think that the way you have been dismissed is reasonable then that is fair enough, but I beleive you have been dismissed contrary to employment lesgislation regardless of the company policy or disciplinary procedure (I am saying their policies are wrong),it is the way they are interpreting the legislation that I am taking issue with, and nobody should loose their job without the procedures being followed.

If there are others being fired for the same type of issues, then yes you are right the company is trying to "get around" the redundancy procedure and it is my belief you should take them to task, or if not you, someone else who has not had the "Verbal Warning" then "2 Written Warning" procedure that should be in place, all documented within their personell files.

Weird Al Yankovic · 28th May 2008, 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigredbus

*Addendum*

Been reading the company's 'Disciplinary and Attendance at Work Procedure' booklet and it states the following...
'This procedure does not form part of any employee's terms and conditions of employment, except as required by law'

I have no written statement of the terms and conditions related to my employment... I will write to them asking for mine... but in the meantime could anyone have the kindness of sheding some light on the paragraphe above, please.

Thank you!

The above just means that your employer has to follow statutory guidelines, by law, regarding disciplinary and grievance matters.

I'm more concerned with the fact you would arrive late but clock in on time.

How often did you do this, honestly, and were the times you falsified substantial, as in more than just a few minutes?

Also, how were you able to do this? Did you just write a time in and out yourself?

And please explain how you would falsify your duties, I don't understand that. What is the nature of your employment?

Try to answer or it will be difficult.

Regards

BeauBrummie · 28th May 2008, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigredbus

'This procedure does not form part of any employee's terms and conditions of employment, except as required by law'

As well as what Weird Al Yankovic has posted, I would argue that thay have shot themselves in the foot by stating the above in the procedure booklet. They are not following the "Except as Required by Law" part.

BB

Bigredbus · 29th May 2008, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

How often did you do this, honestly, and were the times you falsified substantial, as in more than just a few minutes?

Also, how were you able to do this? Did you just write a time in and out yourself?

And please explain how you would falsify your duties, I don't understand that. What is the nature of your employment?

Try to answer or it will be difficult.

Regards

I have been charged with 4 accounts (2 x 25 minutes and 2 x 45 minutes).

There's no automated/computerised system for supervisors/managers as there's for other me

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