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Old 13th May 2008, 23:56   #1 (permalink)
gopher08
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Default Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Hey there, and first I'd like to apologise for making this my first post...

I worked for a government department on a casual basis in my last job, and when I left on 29th February, I collected my last pay and said goodbye to who turned out to be quite a horrible employer, only mitigated by the staff at the place I was working (now closed).

A month went by and I hadn't received my P45, so I didn't really worry and went back to temping, which suits my kind of nomad lifestyle.

For the week I worked at the start of April, I was taxed under the BR code, so out of £220 for the four days, I was subject to around £70 of deductions, which I was expecting. I haven't worked since the start of April due to a family crisis, which is subsiding and I expect to be handed a new assignment next week.

So I was waiting for my P45, but being who they are, they hadn't sent one and I fully expected my agency to hand me a P46 instead.

However, when I checked my bank account at the start of the month, it transpired that they had paid me for the month of April, which was strange, so looking back into my account I found that they had also paid me for March too.

Now, I didn't notice the March payment - my student loan went into the bank at the same time and in total over the space of four days about £7000 worth of transactions went in and out of my account. I'll admit I suck at finances, and I don't really check if I don't have to, so that they paid me came as a shock and I got quite worried about being in hock to them to the tune of a couple of grand.

So I called them and spoke to someone in HR, who took my details and I explained that the other money was gone and I had no reasonable way of paying it back, but I still had the other money and was willing to pay it back. It's lucky I checked, because as my flatmate said, he wouldn't have even checked and that money would be gone if it were his bank.

They told me they'd be in contact, and what happened was that even though the office had closed I was still on the payroll because no one had bothered to remove me. Quite shocked - the payment procedure would involve my line manager - who had left them - approving my flexi and holiday sheets, so this is quite a catastrophic failure on their part in the first place.

The last thing she said to me was that if I didn't pay it back they would hold my P45 to ransom - her exact words. I enquired about tax, which I suddenly realised was going to be an absolute nightmare, and she said I'd have to take it up with HMRC.

So I'm stuck on a few points.

Not paying it back and holding my P45 to ransom? Can they do this? I'm sure I read this isn't legal.

Offering to pay it back in instalments, can they still hold it even though I'm more than willing to negotiate settlement?

A taxation nightmare! I've paid over £600 in tax on those two payments - take it up with HMRC? Does this mean they want the gross amount back and I need to claim the tax from HMRC myself?

I read the contents of the P46, and they're enquiring about work since the start of April, conveniently just after my last assignment finished... I have no idea exactly how much I paid in tax because they didn't send me a payslip, although I assume this should go toward my tax for FY08-09...

So I don't know how to fill out the P46, and I don't really want to disclose too many details to my current employer, the agency, as, well, it's none of their business up until the point where they're going to work out my P46.

Which box am I ticking? Help! If I choose not to pay it back and go work-travelling again, this could mean potential litigation, and obviously I'd rather pay it back for my own moral sense of well being, even though as junior civil servants we got treated like crap.

I don't intend to work for them again.

I'm just generally worried on the above points. If I can gross £300 a week from an assignment, that's a hefty chunk at the basic rate... and I can't afford that, as may well be evident!

Can anyone please offer some sage advice?

Last edited by gopher08; 13th May 2008 at 23:57. Reason: whoops. i named the agency.
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Old 14th May 2008, 00:16   #2 (permalink)
BeauBrummie
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Hi Gopher, welcome to cag,

The short answer to your p46 question is box "A" assuming you have now just the one job. This has the effect of claiming your personal allowance from your current job.

If you have overpaid Tax this current tax year that will be corrected by the above action on your next payslip.

Your previous employer does have the right to reclaim the money that you have been overpaid, but does not have the right to hold your P45 "to Ransom " as you put it.

You should perhaps go into writing regarding the circumstances of the overpayment, and offer your compliance if that is what you wish, but also include a reminder that it is your right to have your P45 issued to you.

BB
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Old 14th May 2008, 00:35   #3 (permalink)
gopher08
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Hi, and thanks for the quick reply!

Box A? Superb. Thank you.

If I were still working for them and there was an overpayment then I could reasonably expect them to make a deduction from my salary - but then, I would have noticed because I would have had a payslip.

Whatever action they want to take - and it's been nearly two weeks now without contact - is fine with me, but pragmatically I'm not able to meet the demand of more than half the overpayment.

If they do threaten me with legal proceedings to recover the money, then I'm obstinate enough and poor enough to drag things out to the extent that it'll cost them more to recover the money than they paid me. Not wise, but given over the past 3 years I've spent more time outside the country than in it, I have the ability to truly disappear. I have nothing more to defend myself with than the flat truth, and if that isn't good enough then I don't know what to do. Unfortunately I can't find anything in employment law to cover past employment, and my employment contract doesn't stipulate anything regarding pay except in arrears on the first of the month, so I'm not sure what avenues they could take.

My concern is that they're going to want £1300 and I have to reclaim the tax and NI myself... and I don't have £1300.
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Old 14th May 2008, 07:38   #4 (permalink)
BeauBrummie
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopher08 View Post
My concern is that they're going to want £1300 and I have to reclaim the tax and NI myself... and I don't have £1300.
Hi gopher,

There will be an elelment of truth in what your ex employer is saying, if they have completed their tax year end procedures, (Which they have to by law by 19 May) then you will have to reclaim any overpaid tax from HMRC. This raises another issue regarding your P60 certificate, again by law they have to issue you with this document by 31 May. For the benefit of anybody else reading this thread this only applies if you were employed by an employer at 5 April.

So again the written version of events is your best bet, to give them clarity of your position and let them know you understand your rights.

BB
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Old 14th May 2008, 10:04   #5 (permalink)
patdavies
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Any P45 issued in the last tax year is voided anyway, from the start of the new tax year (April 5th).

A P46 is used if there is no P45 or it is lost. It allows you to be established with your personal allowance instead of BR.

Your previous employer is legally obliged to supply a P60 detailing income, tax and NI for the last tax year - they cannot hold this to ransom and if they are, talk to HMRC - who will put them straight.

You will have to repay the overpayment, but they cannot insist on lump sum payment. Offer instalments that you can afford each week/month. It may be worth pointing out that you might be able to afford a bit more if only you could sort out your tax/NI.
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Old 14th May 2008, 10:09   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopher08 View Post
If I were still working for them and there was an overpayment then I could reasonably expect them to make a deduction from my salary - but then, I would have noticed because I would have had a payslip.
You might like to mention to them that they have broken the law by not issuing payslips

Quote:
My concern is that they're going to want £1300 and I have to reclaim the tax and NI myself... and I don't have £1300.
You don't have to reclaim yourself. Your ex-employer can only reclaim from you exactly what he has paid you (ie the net amount). They will have to reclaim from HMRC or bear the loss for their error
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Old 15th May 2008, 17:04   #7 (permalink)
gopher08
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Default Re: Former employer holding P45 to "ransom"

Pat, Beau...

Thank you so much for the advice. It's really appreciated.

I'm hoping that once they get in contact I can negotiate a settlement and we can get this sorted out before I leave the country again. If need be, then I'll continue to make payments from abroad, but as long as it's not me who has to deal with HMRC, that's fine.

Again, thanks for giving this little mammal some peace of mind.
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