Going on the sick so she can go on holiday!!!

tracyd · 22nd February 2008, 21:33

Could anyone give me some advice please. My sister in law works in a School and has been refused a holiday out of school time.

She says she will go on the sick and go anyway.

Is it right that you are not allowed out of the country whilst claiming sick pay.

I have also heard you can go abroad but not out of the EU.

The holiday is to Egypt a week before the school breaks for summer.

Can anyone clarify this matter

Tracy

Sidewinder · 23rd February 2008, 00:39

There are no rules (that I have ever heard of) which prevent her from going anywhere in the world whilst off sick, as it is not neccessarily the case that the condition preventing you from working would also prevent you from travelling. Similarly, if she had two different jobs, she could not neccessarily be disciplined for going sick from one job whilst remaining in work at the other one.

It is all about credibility. If she is claiming to be unable to work as she cannot move from her sick bed then quite rightfully the employer would be questioning a miraculous recovery to the extent where she could travel on an aeroplane yet had not recovered sufficiently to attend work. If however she had strained ankle ligaments (for example) which would prevent her from standing for extended periods and there was no alternative arrangement possible to permit her to work, this would not automatically be a barrier to travelling and resting the ankle whilst lying on a sun lounger!

She will undoubtedly cause suspicion, having already asked for and been refused the time off, and your sister in law should be aware that being signed off sick does not mean that she cannot be disciplined or even dismissed if it is done properly.

gizmo111 · 23rd February 2008, 01:08

And of course coming back with a suntan is a dead giveaway

dx100uk · 23rd February 2008, 02:08

likewise edu too.

there are NO rules of any LEA that i know that are enforceable, unless it is specifically written into the contract or local agreement.
MOST schools etc, have wording along the lines of 'at your line managers discretion', but its not sackable if you do.

dont do a sickie, that will be on dodgy ground.

best bet is to either go to the head or pointout that it is not 'a contract rule' and that you cannot avoid such a 'special' holiday.

negotiate rather that do a dalek!

dx

simes · 23rd February 2008, 14:06

As said, there is no rule regarding sick pay and where you are when you collect it. The sick note a GP writes is to say in his opinion you ar eunfit to work, an employer can choose to accept or decline this, if however they decline they would be wise to seek independent advice.
However, going sick on a requested and not granted holiday date coudl easily be viewed as a disciplinary offence. Perhaps it is prudent to ensure you are able to take holiday from employment before booking holiday ?

Weird Al Yankovic · 23rd February 2008, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracyd

Could anyone give me some advice please. My sister in law works in a School and has been refused a holiday out of school time.

She says she will go on the sick and go anyway.

Is it right that you are not allowed out of the country whilst claiming sick pay.

I have also heard you can go abroad but not out of the EU.

The holiday is to Egypt a week before the school breaks for summer.

Can anyone clarify this matter

Tracy

Can you clarify first?

Is it in school time or not? You appear to claim it is both.

tracyd · 24th February 2008, 20:46

Weird Al

Sorry if it isnt clear.
The School she works at breaks for the summer hols on 18/7/2008
She goes on holiday on 11/7/2008 thus missing the last week at School.

She has now spoken to all the ETA,s and they are going in to see the Head as one staff member has been allowed to go on holiday for a month, but her and 2 others have been refused.

They are asking to meet with the governors of the school who also refused the requests.

They have been told that it is breach of contract but none of them appear to have a contract!!

Thanks so much for all the replies
Tracy

Weird Al Yankovic · 24th February 2008, 22:50

ok tracyd, that's clearer. So the holiday is actually term time?

Does she teach? If so-

Despite not having a written contract I would guess an ET would take the view that it is entirely reasonable for the school to refuse staff a holiday during term time. Indeed, it is for any employer to dictate when holidays are taken in any case.

cal37 · 25th February 2008, 06:24

Employer can facts dictate when holidays can or can not be taken. If she goes sick and takes her holiday beware she could be disciplined, as by claiming to be sick would be making a false claim.

Allwood · 25th February 2008, 10:44

It is interesting what you say cal, as that is exactly what is happening with my employer as we were told that we need to book holidays a year in advance and now we have been told to take book holidays 2 years in advance. How can anyone tell a year in advance and it a laughable to thing employees can tell that far in advance what will happen, especially in emergency for them to take holiday. Surely that is unreasonable for employees to put employee under such conditions.

Allwood · 25th February 2008, 11:25

It is interesting what you say about employers can dictate when you can take holidays cal, as that is exactly what is happening with my employer as we were told that we need to book holidays a year in advance and now we have been told to book holidays 2 years in advance. How can anyone tell a year in advance and it a laughable to think employees can tell that far in advance what will happen, especially in emergency for them to take holiday. Surely that is unreasonable for employees to put employee under such conditions.

dx100uk · 25th February 2008, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cal37

Employer can in facts dictate when holidays can or can not be taken. .

not true, UNLESS it is written into the contract!

also if the contract makes ref to what is sometimes called a 'local agreement', whereby unions have agreed to 'abide' by the said agreement, then yes they can make resonable requests to avoid certain times.

i work in edu too, and the above stands for us, as in a local agreement, but it is only a REQUEST to avoid certain times. by negotiation with the line manager we can take term-time off if it is unavoidable. and yes holidays do count as a just reason, esp as many are double or more the price during traditional holiday periods.

it is also on a first come first served basis, if there is no-one to cover my post, then its tough luck can't go, unless we get around a table and talk about it, hence the 'local' agreement! [sort it out amoungst yourselves but dont give the higher managers reason to step in!! ]

dx

cal37 · 25th February 2008, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dx100uk

not true, UNLESS it is written into the contract!

also if the contract makes ref to what is sometimes called a 'local agreement', whereby unions have agreed to 'abide' by the said agreement, then yes they can make resonable requests to avoid certain times.

i work in edu too, and the above stands for us, as in a local agreement, but it is only a REQUEST to avoid certain times. by negotiation with the line manager we can take term-time off if it is unavoidable. and yes holidays do count as a just reason, esp as many are double or more the price during traditional holiday periods.

it is also on a first come first served basis, if there is no-one to cover my post, then its tough luck can't go, unless we get around a table and talk about it, hence the 'local' agreement! [sort it out amoungst yourselves but dont give the higher managers reason to step in!! ]

dx

I`m sorry but you are incorrect. Under the working time directive an employer can say when you can take holidays Holiday entitlements: taking your holidays : Directgov - Employment

and here

Restrictions and notice | Business Link

Allwood · 25th February 2008, 21:33

What about when there is an emergency with family members and you need holidays to help out, I had given my employer a months notice that I needed leave for a disabled family member but was told to provide evidence that what I was telling them was true that M&S for you, I put my evidence in an envelop marked it private and confidential and enclosed a letter with it and in that letter I also asked my manager to treat the enclose evidence as private and confidential as it was of a sensitive nature I also wrote a nice letter to him and asked him to explain the rules as the staff hand book was vary vague. this manager totally Ignored my letter and did not treat the evidence that I had given him as private and confidential. Again when I needed a further 4 days leave for the same reason I was asked again for evidence (as they obviously must have a lier written on forehead. Again they were totally against me having these couple of days off as leave. Now this was for a caring purposes but they did not want me to have my leave. There any many, many other serious incidents with this company practices that are tantamount to harassment and discrimination as well as breach of Disable act towards me.

dx100uk · 25th February 2008, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cal37

I`m sorry but you are incorrect. Under the working time directive an employer can say when you can take holidays Holiday entitlements: taking your holidays : Directgov - Employment

and here

Restrictions and notice | Business Link

point taken sorry.
i must be lucky then or there must be something in the 'history' of things as those sites say.
this local agreement we have, which covers all manner of other things too, might well be the main reason though.

dx

Gertie100 · 26th February 2008, 14:13

Obviously teachers holidays are slightly different to the normal - you can plan in advance when the term dates are released! Its not the same as working for a private company and being told that you have to book 2010's summer holiday now...taking the mickey slightly!

I think you need to find out what action the LEA will take if / when this happens, if you don't manage to get it sorted beforehand.
Personally I couldn't hold my head up in my workplace knowing that I had had holiday turned down so went on the sick instead...

And whilst this may upset some people - don't book holidays during term time! (And yes I am married to a teacher so know how annoying it is having to pay the extra to go in the "holidays" but its never going to change!)

spotnot · 26th February 2008, 16:40

Has she thought of the possibility of taking the time unpaid? My hubbie is a teacher and he took time off to attend a family member's wedding in the States. The fact that the school didn't have to pay up for a supply teacher as well as pay his wages seemed to work ok!

As your sister in law is a TA, a supply TA could be provided. Not that the kids do much the week before summer break anyway.

But you have to question the logic in booking a holiday in term time.

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