HR specialist help needed!

[OrangePrimate]

Hi all

Hoping for some help and clarification of process.

If someone was dismissed (ie. under short term sickness absence, final stage) by a Line 2 Manager, can that manager when advising of the employees right to appeal, dictate exactly who that appeal is addressed to and will subsequently be heard by. In this case another Line 2 Manager (1 of 9 in the 'office)

I and my collegues were under the impression any appeal of this nature should be heard by a higher (level 3) manager.

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Any comments also would be helpful ref the dismissal of employees for sickness - company policy in place but employees being dismissed when reaching final stage of policy but absolutely NO consideration being taken for, length of service or reasons for absence, in each of the stages - comments, 'will be taken into consideration at last stage' but then 'well it hit the triggers so counts' (90% of time genuine certified illness/problems - not DDA covered).

any help/advice greatfully received!

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, an appeal against a disciplinary decision should, wherever possible, be heard by a more senior manager than that who conducted the disciplinary hearing.

From the ACAS website: Acas - Home

Appeals

Appeals should be heard by more senior managers wherever possible. Where a more senior manager is not available, a different manager should hear the appeal


In larger organisations it may be appropriate to allow employees to appeal to a higher level of management. Time limits prevent issues running on and on and encourage managers to deal with them promptly.




Hope this is helpful

[Sidewinder]

There are no hard and fast 'rules' regarding who should or should not hear appeals. Common sense and good business practice dictate that it should ideally be a more senior manager than the one who made the decision, but this does not have to be the case. It should really be covered by your Disciplinary & Grievance procedures. Most policy statements will say that any appeal will be heard by 'Name or Position'. ACAS advice is to use a more senior person 'where possible' but where this is not the case, the person reviewing the appeal should be as fair and objective as possible.

The subject of disciplinary action is always tricky and inevitably unfair on somebody at some point. I have argued on both sides of the coin as from an employer's point of view there must be some measurement criteria in place to assess workplace sickness and to take appropriate action to reduce absence levels. Short term absence inflicts massive costs on a business in terms of productivity, covering absent workers and on morale. From that point of view I understand why there needs to be a system of measurement. Most systems will 'score' persistent absence much more highly than infrequent absences of longer periods and are designed to weed out the 'Monday morning hangovers'.

I agree however that each case has to be heard on its merits and clearly this has not been happening where you work. Sadly however, many companies will not now exercise discretion in dealing with absence correcly for fear of legal action. As an advisor once put it to me "Discretion is no different to Discrimination, so any element of discretion should be removed from company policy altogether'. Imagine two scenarios. 1. Female member of staff needs one or two days off most months to cope with severe discomfort. 2. Male member of staff plays football at weekends for a local team and has had three or four episodes of absence resulting from injuries. Unless both cases are treated equally, either member of staff if disciplined without the other receiving the same treatment could take the caseto Tribunal for sex discrimination. Similar investigations could be triggered by unequal treatment being alleged on the grounds of race or age. The larger and more diverse the workforce, the harder it becomes to exercise discretion.

Sorry - not an answer, as there is no right or wrong in this situation. Policies are required to be reasonable and equal in their treatment of staff.

[OrangePrimate]

Thank you both Ell-enn and sidewinder, great advice!! had already looked at the ACAS site, but it is good to get an HR perspective on it!! Will now have a very close look at the work policy, but from what i can see so far its very ambiguios (sorry spelling!) it says meeting to tbe held by diract line manager (manager A) higher level meetings by another manager (manager b) and appeals by a different manager (manager c) but doesnt say who these people are or what grade!! it coul dbe taken either way!

as for the discretion shown for reasons for illness, i can understand exactly what you are saying sidewinder and agree that policies need to be in place.
But if someone is taken to hospital for tests, is ill following treatment ect, a genuine certified reason for being off, they should be shown some discretion and that absence reason taken into account and not treated the same as someone with the hangover or the footie injuries!!

thats my grumble for the day over!

thanks again

[Sidewinder]

For what its worth I agree entirely, and a good HR manager will always investigate each case on merit, document the investigation and act appropriately to the circumstances. Proper procedure and documentation can allow this with no risk of repercussions.

The problems occur in larger organisations where line managers are often not sufficiently skilled, trained or allowed to actually 'manage'. Rather than spend money on a proper management resource it is easier to just operate a blanket procedure through a proxy 'manager'.

[Ell-enn]

Absdolutely right Sidewinder! Too often in these larger organisations line managers are just given a "pack" of procedures and left to enforce them. Anyone with responsibility for managing people should undergo training from HR and understand where to use discretion regarding genuine illness. If one of our employees is hospitalised it isn't registered in respect of the absence management policy - unless of course they keep breaking limbs playing football at the weekends!

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by Ell-enn

If one of our employees is hospitalised it isn't registered in respect of the absence management policy

Couldn't agree more - likewise our Managers are trusted to use the training which we have provided to determine what need and need not be recorded. At the end of the day there is a need to make the business work, and we all rely on our staff to work effectively and make our lives a little easier. I have always found that in giving a little now I get a lot more in return and we have had very few staff who abuse the system.