Money paid into wrong account

[julian1957]

My son received a letter from the Abbey enclosing a letter from a company he's never heard of. It seems this company has paid £352 in somebody else's wages into his account by mistake and are demanding it back. They gave the Abbey the wrong account number and the bank are not to blame; in fact, the Abbey say they can't return the money without his authority and have asked him to contact this company to sort it out.

Straightforward you might think, except that the money went in in 4 payments of £80-£90 per week for 4 weeks and he hasn't yet had a statement even showing them (nor does he have online banking). He has recently stopped claiming Housing Benefit as his girlfriend has moved from a college course to working and he was expecting the last benefit payment(s) to go into his account, with no idea how much that would be. When he saw his balance on the cash machine screen he had no cause to suspect anything was wrong and has thus spent money on things he wouldn't have bought otherwise. Hardly surprising he didn't notice in view of the 4 smallish amounts.

The upshot of it is that he can't authorise the Abbey to repay the whole amount in one go as he can't afford it. Also, I feel he's been seriously wronged as nobody could reasonably have expected him to have noticed but he's spent money on things he wouldn't have done otherwise and the company who made the error should be made to take this into account???? In addition, he's quite upset by it, being very inexperienced in financial matters and then there's the time, trouble, cost of calls seeking advice etc. So point 1 is that I feel he should be able to charge them for what is, after all, 100% their error, i.e. pay back less than the full £352 after taking such matters into consideration. Opinions on this gratefully received!

Secondly, however, is what happened when I tried to help out by phoning this company at my son's request. They refused to discuss the matter at all UNLESS I give them a name. So they already have my son's bank details and now they want his name (or at least my name, which gives them his surname); this is about 50% of the way towards a dishonest person in their office carrying out identity theft. We are constantly being warned how careful we should be in revealing information about ourselves in case of identity theft yet this company, whose incompetence is the SOLE cause of these problems, are demanding to know the name of the innocent person whose account they paid into by mistake or they won't discuss the matter. I find this totally outrageous - what do you think?

It seems to me that my son is caught between a rock and a hard place. Barring the deduction of a reasonable amount for his costs and trouble, there's no dispute that the money should be repaid. Yet they won't discuss the matter without having enough personal details to force him to change his bank account for security reasons.

So what do they do next? He fears a police car turning up and taking him away for fraud or something despite the fact that reasonable efforts have been made to deal with something that was not his fault and the fact that this company has frustrated those efforts by demanding information to which they are not entitled. A recently retired police officer has advised us not to give a name for exactly the reason stated above by the way, but has no idea what the local police would do if this company made a complaint.

Any advice on how to handle this would be received with massive gratitude.

[patdavies]

Firstly, rest assured that the Police will not turn up on the doorstep. The company have made a mistake, there is no fraud involved. The very worst that could happen is a county court summons as this is a purely civil matter - but even that is some time off. Whilst the money will probably have to be repaid, the company are not entitled to it as a lump sum.

How old is your son? Why is he not managing this for himself?

How much difference are these payments to his normal weekly income? If they add a significant amount of money unexpectedly, then a court will rule that a reasonable man should have been aware and order repayment. If they were not a 'significant sum' in comparison or there was reason to expect such payments form another source, then a court may rule that it was not unreasonable to spend the money and the company cannot now reclaim it.

At some stage, he will have to talk to them but he doesn't need to give them any details that they do not already have - such as address or dob. As for giving his name, all they need to know (and be told) is that he is Mr Surname.

[julian1957]

Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered reply. To answer one question first, this is my youngest son and his 2 brothers would need no help on something like this! He's 19 and rather shy and easily tongue-tied when confronted by someone claiming to have some kind of special knowledge or authority. If they said black was white, he'd probably believe it. Even if he didn't believe it was white he still wouldn't know if it was really black, green or pink. I feel that if I can't help him out with this then I'm not doing my bit very well.

My concern about the police was that I heard of a case where someone spent a huge sum mistakenly placed in their account (more like £100,000 than £352). Apparently they were charged with theft and with "receiving false credit" - I don't know if anyone else has heard of that offence????

I have now learned that the 4 amounts totalling £352 went into his account on his own pay day. He works different hours from week to week and thus gets overtime; being young he's not all that good at remembering what he's due either. Add to that the expectation of the final housing benefit payments and it's totally clear that there was no way of spotting that anything was wrong. He just thought he was "a bit more flush this week" and seems to have spent money on such things as an extra round for his mates on a Saturday night. Certainly, there's no way this extra money could be considered a "significant sum" nor could spending it be regarded as unreasonable in my view.

Final question for anyone in the know. If we decide to make life difficult for these people, who have caused the problem and been totally unreasonable when I tried to deal with it, how can they LEGALLY obtain the name of the account holder? This is rather important, not because there's any intention to avoid repaying ANY of the money but because I intend to make sure he repays £352 less something for his trouble and does so as and when he can afford it. At the moment we hold all the cards, providing anonymity is maintained. If that goes then they can get nasty, which I get the impression is exactly what they'd do.

Once again, thanks for your help.

[Goldlady]

Hi Julian, it is massive incompetence on the part of whoever made the payments. We do payrolls by BACS etc on behalf of clients and now and then we make a mistake. For it to have gone on for four weeks is ridiculous. However I am fully aware that if an error is made by me I will be responsible for the lost money if the person receiving it refuses to pay it back. So far this has not happened but my feeling is that they cannot legally ask your son to pay it back - and are they really going to go to court for 300 quid or so?

[julian1957]

I wouldn't be surprised if they went to court in view of their attitude when I phoned them - "we won't talk to you about it without a name" is hardly the way to behave when you're 100% in the wrong and someone has called to discuss YOUR error!

Intriguingly, their letter to the bank referred to a telephone conversation that they'd already had with the bank and requested the return of the money via BACS!!!! You have to wonder what they were told by the Abbey's call centre on the phone but it was probably completely wrong! However, they have probably been given the impression by someone with little idea what they're talking about that they'd get the money back without any problem, regardless of the inconvenience that it's causing in the real world....

To show how interested the Abbey really are in this matter, their letter to my son ran to 3 short sentences, was unsigned (not even signed p.p.) and enclosed NOT a copy of the company's letter to them but the ORIGINAL!!!! They'd crossed out the number of the account into which the money should have been paid and written "security purpose" by the crossing out. However, you can still clearly see that account number as they haven't crossed it out very well and they didn't cross out the name of the person whose account it is! Great "security" by the Abbey!!!!

Which I guess is a factor in that question that I'd so like to have answered, i.e. how can this company get my son's name LEGALLY. I wouldn't put it past the Abbey to give it to them through sheer stupidity but getting it legally is another matter.

[OrangePrimate]

If this Company were to find out your sons name or account details via the Abbey, the bank would be in BIG trouble! it would be a major breach of the Data Protection Act. They cannot disclose that information to anyone but certain authorities (certain police depts, customs & excise etc). If they cannot get that information, who are they going to take action against?!
Your son has done no wrong, the Abbey has done no wrong, let the Company whistle for it i say!! (although in this situation myself may offer them back half of it as a goodwill gesture!! but getting the bank to do it so they still didnt find out who i was!)

[Chesterexpress]

I don't see the problem in giving them your name, they can't do anything with the account by having it. Why not be sensible about this and just agree to pay it ALL back, either in one lump or if he really can't afford to do that, then in 2/3 monthly payments. Mistakes happen, and I am sure that you would want it repaid if it were you who had made the mistake.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I'd write to the company and ask them to send you 35 stamped adressed envelopes and explain that you (your son) will pay it back at the rate of £10 per week (£12 final week).

[davethorp]

I'd send them packing. No crime has been committed. It was their error. Due to the small sum involved the OP's son reasonably assumed the money was his. In the case of the woman who had £100000 there was no way she could have reasonably assumed it was her money.

Most importantly from what the OP has said, the company have no clue as to where the money went apart from a bank account number. They don't know their name, address or telephone number. Hardly going to be able to collect or send a county court summons.

Ultimately it is down to where your and/or your son's morals lie as to whether you pay them back but you are certainly under no obligation and the company concerned can't expect it in one go. Personally if I was going to pay it back (and if this happened to me I wouldn't be doing) I'd send them a token payment of £1 a month and they could count themselves lucky they got that

[Chesterexpress]

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

[davethorp]

Originally Posted by Chesterexpress

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

If that's the case I think I'll start paying all my bills by bank transfer and then realise I'd sent the payment in mistake and point out the companies obligation to return the money to me. Wonder how far that will get me

[Planner]

Originally Posted by Chesterexpress

davethorp, they are most certainly under an obligation to return the money. As for not knowing the name etc. they could apply to the court to have the bank release the information. Therefore your advice is extremely poor.

The company can ask the bank to release the details under section 35 of the data protection act, I would be extremley surprised if the bank didnt tell them where to go (and if they did give the details out I would be screaming to the Information Comm before the letter had hit the mat). The company would then have to apply for a court order for release of information under section 35 of the act (a process which will cost in itself), i doubt that the court would grant such an order as I doubt they would agree that £352 overides schedule 2 and 3 of the act and the basic right to privacy in European law.

I dont have a position on if it should be paid back.

[julian1957]

Thanks everyone for showing such interest in this. I think that to avoid any doubt I should give my position on whether it should be paid back:-

We are totally honest people and didn't ask for all this trouble. If my son had noticed it at the time then I'd expect it to be fully returned. However, as explained previously, he has spent some of it on things he wouldn't have spent money on with no reason to question that all the money in his account was his. Why should an inexperienced youngster think "Oh, some idiots have paid someone else's wages into my account by mistake" instead of thinking "I'm a bit more flush than I thought I was"? I know what I'd have thought when I was that age!

As far as I'm concerned, there is thus good reason to offer to repay less than the full amount as otherwise he'll effectively have lost out - the money spent has gone forever and replacing it would mean cutting back on necessities. Also, there's the time, trouble and cost of dealing with it so far, which also should be deducted.

Beyond those points, yes, they should get the rest back, but at his convenience and in a way that ensures they don't get his name, again for reasons previously stated.

However, the attitude of the company responsible for all this has led to more people being consulted, more calls being made to try to get more information etc etc. This should all be taken into account - in other words, if I make a 15 minute phone call to someone about this that I wouldn't have made if the company hadn't refused to talk to me when I called them, then the cost of that call is another amount to deduct. Clearly, those responsible for the original problem and for exacerbating it must expect to pay all the costs involved in resolving it.

I'm going to post again later as I'm waiting for a call from my son's girlfriend, who has had a long chat with the Citizens Advice Bureau today. I've had the very basic details of what they said and, believe me, it's surprising!

Once again, thanks everyone.

[IdaInFife]

I don't think they can take it back.

Did you receive a letter from the bank asking his permission? If so refuse.
They are asking to padd on your details to the company.

I had a similar position at work where they had overpaid me a few others. (paid us overtime that we had not put in for)

We were all sent letters asking whether we would pay it back.

Them that responded yes and agreed, paid it . Me and a few other didn't respond and were never asked again. i am trying to find the info i got on it.

I think basically it is up to your son if he wants to pay it back or not.

£1 per month seems reasonable for the lack of security!

idax

[IdaInFife]

by the way... if you pay by online banking it clearly tells you that any payments you make to the wrong account cannot be reversed if the details are wrong!

bacs are no different!

Idax

[Goldlady]

I am sure you are right Ida. I know on the couple of occasions where I have paid the wrong person my clients have told me that if the recipient won't pay it back then I will be responsible. Fortunately for me the people have refunded it, but then these are fellow employees not total strangers, and they would have received a payslip showing how much they should have been paid. If you couldn't be expected to know the payments were wrong then you are not to blame and can't be pursued for it IMHO.