Accident at work

[Bookworm]

Sorry, Paul, I have no great advice, simply because this is so far beyond normal that I can't believe they are even trying it.

I would however push the union a bit further, this is after all what you pay your contributions for, and I am pretty sure that however busy the rep, a disciplinary hearing should take priority over over admin duties, she can't have that many hearings in her schedule!

Maybe someone needs to say this to you, in case you're too close to see it: From what you are describing, your job is intent on getting rid of the problem you are causing them, and if that means getting rid of you, that's what they'll do. I think they have worked out that if you go on sick leave long term because of work related injuries, you will cost them more than what an ET would award you if they fire you, and they are working towards that conclusion. IMO anyway.

Sending positive thoughts your way.

[pt2537]

Hi Bookworm,
thanks for the input

i have to say that i agree with you, my employers dont like it cause im a law student and that i know the law in certain areas better than they do. i mean our HR department are so hapless they didnt even know what page of the employee handbook the grievance proceedure was on, until i pointed it out to them

they didnt even know that it was a clear breach of contract to try and change my work colleagues work hours from 40 per week to 48. its clearly written in our contract 40 hours and no more , overtime is non contractual and stated as that in the handbook. you'd have thought a HR department would know that wouldnt you

still, as things are going it appears that we will be going to tribunal quicker than i thought as they are still not allowing me the representation from the union.

also their arguement is so weak so if they do sack me they will be introuble


thanks again for your help,

im looking around for another job atthe mo but it needs to be one that can accomodate my studies tthats they biggest problem


regards
paul

[cal37]

Hi Paul,

I`ll help where i can. First off they MUST follow the DDP ( Dismissal and Disciplinary Procedures ) This consists of the following....

1: Letter from the employer to the employee setting out the circumstances which have led them to consider dismissal or disciplinary action. The letter should also invite the employee to a disciplinary meeting and the employee should be provided with sufficient time to prepare for it.

2: Disciplinary meeting. Employee should be notified of decision post meeting and advised of their right to appeal( 5 working days from the date of letter dismissing him )

3:Appeal. Employer should appoint a more senior manager to represent them at the appeal.
Should the employer fail to follow the DDP and proceed to dismiss the employee, the dismissal would amount to automatic unfair dismissal.

In the meeting they will more than likely have a manager and a witness, also someone to take notes.
You have the right to a witness of your choice, this can be a co worker or a trade union rep ( even if there is no onsite agreement with the union).

You can take notes, ask questions and see any notes or witness statments and read them in private. You can call for an adjournment at ANY point in the meeting.

So if like you say, they produce someone at the hearing you have the right to have a adjournment and discuss it in private. You can end the meeting at any point so long as its so you can seek clarification with your union etc.

If you have not been given a letter about the meeting as per part one of the DDP`s then as the meeting opens state that they have failed to do so and make sure its minuted.

You have the right to copies of the notes taken and make sure that they are correct.

If you need anymore info then feel free to ask.

Phil

[NitrousOxide]

Originally Posted by cal37

Hi Paul,

I`ll help where i can. First off they MUST follow the DDP ( Dismissal and Disciplinary Procedures ) This consists of the following....

1: Letter from the employer to the employee setting out the circumstances which have led them to consider dismissal or disciplinary action. The letter should also invite the employee to a disciplinary meeting and the employee should be provided with sufficient time to prepare for it.

2: Disciplinary meeting. Employee should be notified of decision post meeting and advised of their right to appeal( 5 working days from the date of letter dismissing him )

3:Appeal. Employer should appoint a more senior manager to represent them at the appeal.
Should the employer fail to follow the DDP and proceed to dismiss the employee, the dismissal would amount to automatic unfair dismissal.

In the meeting they will more than likely have a manager and a witness, also someone to take notes.
You have the right to a witness of your choice, this can be a co worker or a trade union rep ( even if there is no onsite agreement with the union).

You can take notes, ask questions and see any notes or witness statments and read them in private. You can call for an adjournment at ANY point in the meeting.

So if like you say, they produce someone at the hearing you have the right to have a adjournment and discuss it in private. You can end the meeting at any point so long as its so you can seek clarification with your union etc.

If you have not been given a letter about the meeting as per part one of the DDP`s then as the meeting opens state that they have failed to do so and make sure its minuted.

You have the right to copies of the notes taken and make sure that they are correct.

If you need anymore info then feel free to ask.

Phil

This advice is excellent. Follow this to the T.
PT, you mentioned case law from tribunals. Employment is governed by law set by the government. Tribunals are only civil courts so each case doesn't set a precedent. That's why appeals from tribunals can only be on a point of law.

[NitrousOxide]

Does everyone have tools where you work? Are they easy to get hold of?

[pt2537]

Hi Nitrous,

when you say tools what do you mean?

im a little confused as im unsure what you are refering ot


By the way, thanks for the advice Cal37, its most helpful and puts my mind at rest so i now know how things should proceed

thanks for all the help


regards
paul

[paulgmb]

Hi Paul,

you have 5 working days in which to reschedule any hearing and as stated you have a legal right to be accompanied at the hearing.
They have to provide you in advance copies of the management statement of case, copies of any witness statements and anything will be relying on. Ask them to put in writing that the employment act does not apply to them. (or indeed any other employment legislation)
You are right not to discuss your injury with them, your solicitor should have advised you of this. I think everything else has been covered?
Oh one last thing, if you were off work for more than 3 days it becomes a notifiable incident and your employer has to notify the HSE (Health and Safety executive) you may also want to speak to the local Health and Safety dept. at your local town hall and also register the accident with the DWP (Department of work and pensions) to register the accident.

I hope this is useful?

I'd better get on with some work!!

Regards,

Paul

[pt2537]

Hi Paul,

thanks for your input, it is much appreciated.

my solicitor did in the end tell me what i could talk about and what i couldnt so no problems there

my employers have today conceeded that i am entitled to representation, i sent them a letter via recorded delivery outlining my rights and that they were denying me them contrary to the law.

i think it was the email i sent to the CEO's office which did the trick , my boss was on the phone this morning all appologetic and he couldnt say sorry enough and that he didnt want this to end up at a tribunal

anyway the hearing is set for wednesday at 3pm so i WILL have my union rep present and we will see what they have to say.



i will let you all know how it goes, but im not holding my breath as i feel my employer really wants rid of me



regards
paul

[pt2537]

Well , today was like something out of a comedy sketch. we arrived at the hearing and the HR manager was on the phone, we were invited into the office and while the HR manager was on the phone she was swearing and abusing an employee to her colleague over the phone, my union rep was not amused to say the least. then we sat down and my regional manager explained why we were there, then he went on to refer to notes from the investigating meeting,which we had not been given a copy. so we asked for a minute to read over the notes.

i could not believe the notes, they were all out of order, the answers were given before the questions were asked and the notes were un-readable as a result.
My union rep then asked about the investigation which my employer had undertaken, the regional manager asked to ops manager for teh statements from the witnesses, he said what statements i have not taken any. so we then asked if you have not spoken to the witnesses how do you know what happened and how can you prove that im in the wrong?

as a result my regional manager had no chioce but to adjourn the hearing and re suspend me for another 3-4 weeks while he gets his act together


i couldnt believe it, and i have no idea what is going to happen next

regards

paul

[Bookworm]

Another 3-4 weeks of paid holidays, by the look of it. Oh dear.

[pt2537]

Hi Bookworm

It does seem that way,

hopefully i will be able to get my law exam out of the way on the 11th october, then i will (providing i pass) be able to tell my employer to go jump or shove their job up their.... now thats wishful thinking


still not to worry, im just gonna enjoy the time off and get on with my research


regards
paul

[cal37]

i have seen this sort of thing so many times.Enjoy the time off Paul.


phil

[paulgmb]

Hi Paul,

thanks for letting me know how the disciplinary hearing went, what a fiasco!!

Basically all papers he was relying on for this hearing, copies should have been given to you in advance once you were notified in writing that the were moving to a full disciplinary hearing. Also, who conducted the investigation?

This should not be the same person who conducted the investigatory meeting.

Who else was present?

Normally the person who conducted the investigation will present the case to a higher manager who will chair the hearing. They should not have any prior knowledge or involvment in the matter and will make their judgement on the evidence that is presented before them.

The way they are carrying on they are breaching the ACAS code on disciplinary hearings which is now usually good enough to win at Tribunal. Tribunals take a very dim view of employers who have not followed best practice, thats of course if it gets that far.

Best of luck, do keep me informed.

Best regards,

Paul

[pt2537]

Hi Cal37 & Paulgmb,


it was something out of a comedy sketch

Paulgmb, i had not recieved any such copy of the notes from the investigatory meeting which i had previously attended. these notes were presented by the Regional Manager at the disciplinary hearing yesterday, it was only the fact that he asked if we have had a copy that we knew the minutes even exsisted.

the Regional manager said that he was investigating the accident with the chair and he hadnt concluded his investigation, he did say that once he had he would call me in to answer questions on that at another disciplinary hearing in the near future.
he then went on to say that he was adjourning the hearing so that he can carry out further investigations as the operations manager had failed to carry out the investigation correctly. he said i would be called back to at a later time to discuss both allegations against me.

now the thing is that the Regional Manager will be investigating the incident and from what he said yesterday he will also be holding the hearing too , that cant be right can it

also the operations manager who held the investigation has gone on holiday so he could not have been there yesterday to state his finding to the hearing


it really was a debacle,

i will let you all know what happens next



regards
paul