Bradford points

[geeg22]

In my workplace the Bradford point scheme is being used to bully harrass and discipline workers who are genuinly ill..

My attendance is good but after my recent 1week stay in hospital I was asked for a sick note and then interviewed and warned about Bradford points.. If I am ill again do I stay off of work or run the risk of disciplinary action.

A co worker was involved in a car crash and due to time off work over it has been disciplined.

another co worker had mouth/throat cancer and due to a few spells off of work over it is now on a 6month verbal warning..

Can this be legal ?

Geeg22

[pt2537]

Hi, what is the "Bradford point" Scheme?

i assume that it is a recording system which records sickness, is this correct?.

regards
paul

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Sickness can be viewed very unfairly and harshly at times.

A friend of mine had a nervous breakdown because of work and then made a Tribunal claim but a month after the time span.

Despite his illness, and proof of it, the Tribunal still struck out his claim as out of time!

Incredible.

[GlasweJen]

I have no idea about bradford points but i do know that you shouldn't be disciplined for taking time off while you are sick if you have a sick note. If you fall sick again i'd go see the doctor, take time off and see what they say.

[pt2537]

I agree with Jenschnifer that you sholdnt be disciplined while signed off as sick/ unfit for work.


your employers will probably be entitled to conduct a disciplinary hearing if you are absent from work regulary and they can show that there is a pattern to your absense. ie you take a friday night off every week and you are seen out with your friends on that night. however if you are genuinely ill and signed off on a Form Med 3 ( sick note) from your doctor then your employers should not discipline you nor should they threaten you with disciplinary action.

it may be a good idea to check the acas website at Acas - Home as they have information on this type of issue and how you and your employers should deal with it and your rights at work.

your employers actions appear totally unreasonable and it would appear based upon the info you have provided that should they dismiss you for being sick then you would have a strong claim at an employment tribunal

again i would check with acas
regards
paul

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Originally Posted by Jenschnifer

I have no idea about bradford points but i do know that you shouldn't be disciplined for taking time off while you are sick if you have a sick note. If you fall sick again i'd go see the doctor, take time off and see what they say.

Not as clear cut as that I'm afraid.

A former colleague of mine used to do a lot of 'dangerous' sports in his spare time-rock climbing, pot holeing etc. Nothing to do with work.

However, as he was off sick a number of times, due to falls or whatever, and had doctor's notes, he was warned several times by his employer that his absences were interfering with his work and eventually they sacked him.
He got advice from a lawyer about a claim and was told he had no reasonable chance of success.

Employment law is never what it appears.

[geeg22]

Originally Posted by pt2537

Hi, what is the "Bradford point" Scheme?

i assume that it is a recording system which records sickness, is this correct?.

regards
paul

Yeah Bradford point scheme was designed to evaluate who is worth keeping if u were to make redundancies.. However many companies now use it to discipline employees who are off sick

[GlasweJen]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

However, as he was off sick a number of times, due to falls or whatever, and had doctor's notes, he was warned several times by his employer that his absences were interfering with his work and eventually they sacked him.
He got advice from a lawyer about a claim and was told he had no reasonable chance of success.

Employment law is never what it appears.

That is true but the OP says that there was good attendance prior to the stay in hospital.

[geeg22]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

Not as clear cut as that I'm afraid.

A former colleague of mine used to do a lot of 'dangerous' sports in his spare time-rock climbing, pot holeing etc. Nothing to do with work.

However, as he was off sick a number of times, due to falls or whatever, and had doctor's notes, he was warned several times by his employer that his absences were interfering with his work and eventually they sacked him.
He got advice from a lawyer about a claim and was told he had no reasonable chance of success.

Employment law is never what it appears.

thanks for your reply it helps to get other views

[geeg22]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

Not as clear cut as that I'm afraid.

A former colleague of mine used to do a lot of 'dangerous' sports in his spare time-rock climbing, pot holeing etc. Nothing to do with work.

However, as he was off sick a number of times, due to falls or whatever, and had doctor's notes, he was warned several times by his employer that his absences were interfering with his work and eventually they sacked him.
He got advice from a lawyer about a claim and was told he had no reasonable chance of success.

Employment law is never what it appears.

thats true.. but at least ive had a whine lol

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Originally Posted by Jenschnifer

That is true but the OP says that there was good attendance prior to the stay in hospital.

I see your point but it could also be just one off too depending on the injury and the job.

A delivery driver may have a serious injury outside of work where he loses a leg. Is it fair for that employer to then sack him?

[pt2537]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

I see your point but it could also be just one off too depending on the injury and the job.

A delivery driver may have a serious injury outside of work where he loses a leg. Is it fair for that employer to then sack him?

yes, so long as the employer explores all other options for an alternate position first then it would be reasonable. the situation as described by geeg22 as it stands it would be unfair for the employer to dismiss or discipline based upon what we have been told at present

[gemspan]

Hi There

My opinion FWIW regarding the colleague to engaged in dangerous sports.

When you take part in dangerous sports YOU are making the decision to take part. Therefore if you break a leg or end up in hospital - you were the one that made the decision and therefore YOU are responsible for your actions.

However, sickness generally is unavoidable ie how can somebody know if they are going to get sick? That is a chance that the company takes when they employ someone. Using this type of system when illness is genuine is appalling.

If you are not fit to work and will never be fit to work then the employer and the employee should come to a decision together. However if you are placed in hospital due to your own actions and this happens continuously then I would say that your employer has a right to sack you if you refuse to change.

As I said, my opinion FWIW.

Gemspan

[pt2537]

Another point worth mentioning is the Duty of Care.

an Employer has a clear duty of care to their employees in ensuring that their actions (or lack of actions) do not have a detrimental effect on them. (there is significant case law on this)

in this case it is fair to say that the employers actions in disciplining or threatening to discipline an employee who has been unwell could breach that duty as it is likely to cause stress

equally an employee has a Duty of Care to the employer so therefore an employee who is not fit for work should not attend work as they would too be breaching that duty, especially if they had an accident at work as a direct result of them being unfit


just some thing else to ponder

regards
Paul

[cal37]

Originally Posted by geeg22

In my workplace the Bradford point scheme is being used to bully harrass and discipline workers who are genuinly ill..

The Bradford points system is archaic and very few companies use it still. It was set up by Bradford city council funny enough in the 80`s. To catch the Monday morning gang and works well for that purpose. However many companies either do not understand the system or miss use it.

My attendance is good but after my recent 1week stay in hospital I was asked for a sick note and then interviewed and warned about Bradford points.. If I am ill again do I stay off of work or run the risk of disciplinary action.

Ask to see the companies policy on sickness, ask to have the Bradford points explained to you. Ask how many points triggers the sickness policy.

Were you offered the chance of appeal? All companies should have an appeal system in place so genuinely ill staff are not penalized.

You say you had a stay in hospital, in your case any company should remove the points for that illness. If you do not have an appeal the put a grievance note into management and raise the point that you have had good attendance before your stay in hospital and should not be penalized for being genuinely ill.

If they will not remove the points or letter of warning then you have a right to escalate the grievance to higher management.............do so!!

A co worker was involved in a car crash and due to time off work over it has been disciplined.


another co worker had mouth/throat cancer and due to a few spells off of work over it is now on a 6month verbal warning..

Same goes for your co workers BUT ONLY if the company never offered a right to appeal the warnings.............if thats the case then they should also raise a grievance letter.

Can this be legal ?

Yes it is legal to use and yes a company could sack someone because of this system.Mind i have defended many guys threatened with dismissal under Bradford points and in every case the company has given them one more chance. Its rocky ground if ever taken to a tribunal, no ones really sure who is right and wrong here.

Most companies have stopped using the system ( Bradford city council too ) because of its unfair trigger point and the fact it makes lots of extra work to manage the system.I bet i could even name the company you work for because i believe they are the only large company still using it in the UK.


Geeg22

Hope this helps

[cal37]

Off topic but here goes.........There seems to be a misconception that you can not or should not be disciplined or sacked for being ill.

This is not the case, even with a sick note a company can discipline or fire you if your level of sickness is too great.

A sick note is ONLY an explanation of why you are not in work and NOT a right to time off work.

Yes a company does have a duty of care and 99% of companies do not what ill people at work where they might be a Hazard. However if a persons level of illness gets to a point that its detrimental to the company they most defiantly have to right to dismiss you.