DVLA - SORN fine

[danny_kiernan]

To RugbyPete,

If you want to pay the fine, that is cool - you have got 50% off.

Personally I would refuse it and go to court as I did before, but I am a stubborn SOB and did it on principle.

Hope that helps

Dani

[Jenna1]

If you think it's rubbish fair enough, you don't have to believe me

[danny_kiernan]

I didn't mean to be offensive Jenna1, but the DVLA are still registering SORN cases in Northampton

[RugbyPete]

not heard anything since


wait for a debt collection letteR?

[RugbyPete]

Ok, got a letter the other day. Basically says "we tried to get money from you but it's still outstanding"

What shall I do now, approach my MP?

To recap:

They have ignored my photocopy of the original
Ignored the fact I pointed out the postal system and DVLA have losses of mail
Pointed out there was no obligation to send by recorded delivery
Stated I had no chance to pay the reduced payment as the timescale was unrealistic
They are gunning for the £80 now and threaten court.

Note: They had my only copy of the application form (should have made a second copy - damn)

I either:
a) Pay £80, all in vein
b) Not pay - await for them to organise debt collectors
c) Explain the above to my MP - but will need help on what to say.

[danny_kiernan]

Hiya - have you tried my template letter with them?

The DVLA has issued me with a “penalty” for allegedly not registering my vehicle as SORN.

Notwithstanding the fact that I advised the DVLA of the vehicles status, being taken by a salvage company for monies owed, but by virtue of the fact that the DVLA method of trial is a computer database and the postal system, I consider that the DVLA is acting Ultra Vires by attempting to extort monies from me without due legal process, as is my right under article 6 of the human rights convention and under the Bill of rights 1689. The DVLA is not a Court of Law nor is it a competent authority for the following reasons:

Article 6 of the given European Convention on Human Rights provides that -

"In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice."


The said appeals service offered by the said DVLA is not established in accordance with law, as required by the said Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights -


in that:


The basic laws of the United Kingdom as provided within the Common Law of the Kingdom of England with the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, and as further enacted by the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom to the purpose of establishing and preserving the Civil Liberties of all people living within the territories of the United Kingdom –

which Common Law may not be repealed and which Statute Law remains un-repealed -

have been and are now being violated by the provisions of such enactment as now claims to provide lawful authority for the existence and conduct of the DVLA, but which fails to provide any such lawful authority, because of the given violations to Constitutional Laws and Provisions which retain the force of law.

In evidence of the submission given, a full reference is made to the text of the Common Law Charter of King Henry III, dated 1225 (the existence of which Charter is now evidenced by the text of the 1297 enactment of King Edward I and his parliament), and a further full reference is made to the several texts of the Declaration & Bill of Rights (variously dated February & December of 1689) –

which latter documents now serve to define and restrict the powers of the Crown in Parliament, to the purpose of preserving Peaceful Government under the Rule of Law,

Article 234 (formerly Article 177), of the Treaty establishing the legal entity that is now known as the European Union now provides -

• that the European Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to
  give preliminary rulings concerning -
  
  (a) the interpretation of the Treaty;
  
  (b) the validity and interpretation of acts (entered into) by the
  institutions of the Community and/or by the European Bank;
  
  (c) the interpretation of the statutes of bodies established by an
  act of the Council, where those statutes so provide.

• Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal
  of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers
  that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to
  give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling
  thereon.

• Where any such question is raised in a case pending before
  a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decis-
  ions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court
  or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice.

Magna Carta of 1225, confirmed by the Statute of 1297.
"We will not pass upon him, nor [condemn him], but by lawful judgment of his peers, or by the Law of the Land."

I contend that the clear option as to method of trial is an option that belongs to me as my property, and that title to this property is confirmed by the Confirmation of Liberties given in Magna Carta-

"We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties underwritten, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever"

I also contend that the substantive law relevant to this hearing is further declared by the provisions of the Declaration of Rights and further secured by the Bill of Rights subsequently enacted -

"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void"

As such, I do not recognise the DVLA’s authority to issue penalties/fines nor have I had a trial within a competent criminal Court to find guilt under a section 31A offence of not procuring a vehicle licence. Should the DVLA insist on pursuing this unlawful course of action, then I request that you refer the matter to the European Court of Justice under article 234.

It works for most people

Dani

[Josie8]

Write and ask them where it states in statute that you have ti PROVE they received it? Postal service means it is deemed served two days after posting. Then see them in court

[danny_kiernan]

Josie 8 thats the UPU agreement, where the UK have a proviso that the post becomes the recipients as soon as it has been posted, unlike every other country, where the post remains the senders till it gets there.

So you are right, legally

[RugbyPete]

Danny, who do I send that letter to? The DVLA or my MP??
Thanks

[danny_kiernan]

Pete, Well I sent it to the DVLA and used it in court - so probably best to send a copy to both, I am not sure though as I have never sent a letter to an MP before personally.

Dani

[RugbyPete]

I'll give it a go. If it fails, what's your fee to go to court for me?

[danny_kiernan]

lol - my fee is more than the fine, the best thing for you to do is pop into the local library and read up on the laws I mentioned. Just looking online doesn't work as there is a lot of information there which isn't totally accurate. I have a subscription to the Law Society to read cases which have occurred, but it is expensive - so I would advise against joining as when you win against the DVLA (not if but when), they won't reimburse those costs.

Trust me, a day looking through the law in a library is an eye-opener and will probably help you in any future legal disputes. It is a bit hard to find the exact information you need from the library, but is worth the search.

Dani

[borisbeaver]

You can SORN your car on line and you don't need the tax reminder.

Go to: DVLA Online Vehicle Licensing | Home

Enter the document ref number on your V5C and the registration number.

The SORN is immediate and you have an e-mail to confirm it. It takes up to 4 weeks for the written confirmation to be sent.

[danny_kiernan]

Originally Posted by borisbeaver

You can SORN your car on line and you don't need the tax reminder.

Go to: DVLA Online Vehicle Licensing | Home

Enter the document ref number on your V5C and the registration number.

The SORN is immediate and you have an e-mail to confirm it. It takes up to 4 weeks for the written confirmation to be sent.

Yes Boris you can, depends if the DVLA database is working or not though - or they lose your details due to human error (which weirdly becomes your error)

Dani

[borisbeaver]

Which is why you need to retain the e-mail confirmation.

This is mine:

Confirmation of Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)
Vehicle Licensing Online [donotreply@vehiclelicence .gov.uk]

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED EMAIL - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY AS EMAILS RECEIVED AT THIS ADDRESS CANNOT BE RESPONDED TO.

Confirmation of Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)

Thank you for using DVLA Vehicle Licensing Online. Your SORN declaration has been successful.

Reference Number: 9047 0170 6609 xxxx
Vehicle Registration Mark: MYREG
Application made on: 20/09/2007 19:26:20 SORN Period: 12 months

The SORN confirmation letter should arrive in the post within 4 weeks.

[danny_kiernan]

very true boris

[shabz]

hello guys

i am new to forum and came across this forum as i was looking for a solution to my dilemma.

i received a letter from dvla a couple of days ago asking for £80.00 fine. my vehicle has been declared as sorn for the last couple of years. i always make sure i send it off in time in the post. the vehicle is off the road, if you saw the state it is in you'd know why!! i cant believe i have to pay this for nothing!!

danny-do you think your template letter would work for me as slightly different circumstances?

any advice much appreciated.

[danny_kiernan]

Hi Shabz,

Sorry for my late reply - I've been on holiday this week on the not-so sunny lincolnshire coast, freezing our butts off at night (brrrrrrr).

Glad to be back home, in the warm now

The answer to your question is yes, you can use the template letter, I put up in your case as it states that the DVLA is not a court of law and cannot make judgements, fining people.

Also, if you have sent off the SORN declaration, then you can quote the UPU act, if they deny receiving it (lost in post).

If you have any questions, please let me know - I am happy to help.

Dani