Vehicle title problems! Who owns the vehicle

[surfaceagentx20]

The finance company have not given anything away.

The third party acquired title to the car by statutory provision; not by some implied contract between the finance company and the third party.

Read sub-section (6) again, which I repeat below:

(6) Nothing in this section shall exonerate the debtor from any liability (whether criminal or civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section; and, in a case where the debtor disposes of the motor vehicle to a trade or finance purchaser, nothing in this section shall exonerate
(a)that trade or finance purchaser, or
(b)any other trade or finance purchaser who becomes a purchaser of the vehicle and is not a person claiming under the first private purchaser, from any liability (whether criminal of civil) to which he would be subject apart from this section.

x20

[austin8]

So what you saying,

1 the new owner is the owner (fair to them, they have done nothing wrong, from my point of view)

2 The finace company will take me to court and force me to pay the finance off, thats was spossed to be a secured loan! (not fair, i have done no wrong)

3 The trader, has spend the money, has gone into volentry liquidation, will not be allowed to be a director again, get to right all hs debts off (40 other vehicle sold and not paid for!), and have a fresh start.

So I have to accept this, and pay the finance off?

[surfaceagentx20]

In a nutshell ,yes.

Any claim by the finance company will not so much be about about any wrongdoing, but about their rights and how the disposal of the vehicle in the circumstances you have described and in combination with the Act has resulted in them ceasing to be the owner of it.

The claim may be for more than the finance owing on it, though I would expect them to settle for that sort of figure. I say this because there is good evidence that the vehicle in question and which they owned on the day it was sold to the third party had a market value on that day of £14,000.00.

I am certain that your involvement in all of this is as a victim too, but the remedy available to you is to pursue the trader, which by all accounts will not bear fruit.

People should be extremely wary about releasing vehicles not owned by them and subject to finance, to traders with actual or ostensible authority to sell that vehicle on their behalf.

[raydetinu]

Yep agree you must deal with HP company and come to some arrangement, preferably without them having to go to court.

Pat- DVLA will only issue V5 to registered keeper on the existing V5 if lost; you need the seller portion signed to change Keeper; so if you have lost your V5 and want to sell your car you must first get a new one.

[austin8]

The owner is the police, since the last notes,

The police still have the vehicle, as if what is said is true, everybody in debt with HP can simply sell there vehicle and the new owner will have the right to the vehicle!

No when you purchase a vehilce, it is the purchasers responsability to check the vehicle is for sale, even if buying off a forecourt!

If you do not check, and the legal takes the vehicle, theres nothing you can do.

Thanks

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by austin8

The owner is the police, since the last notes,

No they aren't - they merely have current possession. Even a vehicle siezed under S.59 and crushed is never owned by the Police

The police still have the vehicle, as if what is said is true, everybody in debt with HP can simply sell there vehicle and the new owner will have the right to the vehicle!

No, the new owner acquires good title if (s)he purchases it from a trader. If the trader obtained the vehicle without first checking its status, then tough on him.

No when you purchase a vehilce, it is the purchasers responsability to check the vehicle is for sale, even if buying off a forecourt!

Yes, the purchaser should check. However see the above and previous posts where the vehicle is purchased from a motor trader

If you do not check, and the legal takes the vehicle, theres nothing you can do.

I don't follow this comment at all. Who is 'the legal'? And if you have purchased from a trader, then the vehicle is yours.

Any dispute, unless a crime is alleged, is a civil matter and nothing to do with the Police. If I had bought a vehicle in good faith from a trader, then by now I would be suing the chief constable concerned for the return of my property.

[austin8]

Hi, Thanks for the reply,

Hope this clears up the statment.

If you do not check, and the legal(HP) takes the vehicle, theres nothing you can do.

The vehicle has to go back to the HP company, HP has been going 100s years, there contracts are tough enough to deal with issuse like this, this will not be the first time this has happened!

Yes the buyer purchased from a doggy trader, they did not request a HP search, they did not requested the vehicle to be registered in there name! And there seem to be little proof what they paid for the vehicle! yes they have a reciept. But a receipt off a doggy trader is no good, bank transfers etc have not been declared.

Back to the point on the police own the vehicle, about a month ago the police seized the vehicle. I pushed for an answer fast, the answer given was the third party own the vehicle. yesterday, the police contacted me stating that they lied (can thet legally do this?) and they still have the vehicle. they told the same lie to the third party. So yes the police have kept the vehilce for 1 month in secrect. At it would seem that they intend to keep for them self!

Over the past month I have found -

To start a more serious point, the trader! Has done this over 40 times over 4 years taking over £250K to my knowedge. All victims are elderly, I have been looking into his dealing, contacted 10 of them and ask to report to the police at the same office, the police still say this is a civil matter! Is it? The trader has been taking vehilce with no intention of paying for them, and the victims are left footing the bill to take action against him (some with HP left to pay), and because he is a limited company: he has stolen over 1/4million to my knowledge and will be asked to close down his business and dont do it again. Is there a way to make the police take action against him?

Thanks

[Nemesis_Drake]

Why would a private individual have an HPI check performed on a vehicle on a motor traders forecourt?

I wouldn't! and I would argue that the "trader" Should before taking receipt of any vehicle.

I would scream "fiddle" if the new "owner" had paid half the market value as that would imply implicity in the fiddle....

However £14K is no "unbelievably cheap" deal.


Good luck!

[austin8]

Scream fiddle, it does not get your money back, yes how many people by a vehicle without a HP check, I have other vehilces, purchased from forecourts, never had a HPi check, and it would seem that they might not be my vehicles, if an hp company says there the legal owner, I have to reclaim my money from the trader. not the HP company calim from the trader. If there is not trader left, its me who has lost out, not the HP.

Yes it would seem unfair but its the buyer responsibility to check what they are buying, and a buyer myself i have never checked, friends I spoken too, never check. But all could belive they own vehilces that an HP company owns,l and could be recalled at any time.

But there are not many con persons out there, so in general people do not check! But I assume we should? Thats how come hes done it 40+ times, 1/4million pounds, and the police are not concerned.

How do you make the police take this seriosly??

[Nemesis_Drake]

From a different perspective..."You" are the "seller" and in fact "you" didn't own it...The finance company own it until such time as you pay them their dues.

For the Police to be interested there'd have to be a law broken?

Maybe he traded illegally? Do you have a transcript of the original contract from which it could be shown he was in breach?

With regards to calling him a conman....maybe he isn't?
Possibly like many businesses he has "gone under" and that I'm afraid may be the end of it......Be careful how you sell your home

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by austin8

Scream fiddle, it does not get your money back, yes how many people by a vehicle without a HP check, I have other vehilces, purchased from forecourts, never had a HPi check, and it would seem that they might not be my vehicles, if an hp company says there the legal owner, I have to reclaim my money from the trader. not the HP company calim from the trader. If there is not trader left, its me who has lost out, not the HP.

Yes it would seem unfair but its the buyer responsibility to check what they are buying, and a buyer myself i have never checked, friends I spoken too, never check. But all could belive they own vehilces that an HP company owns,l and could be recalled at any time.

Sorry, regardless of how long HP companies have been around and how strong their contracts are, you are ignoring Surfaceagentx20's postings (especially #21).

If a private individual purchases a vehicle in good faith from a dealer, they gain legal title by statute - end of.

This means that the HP company are no longer the legal owner, but doesn't negate the debt owed to the HP company within the original contract. IOW, they lose their security (the car), but the contract (or more accurately the debt) is not voided.

In you particular case, as you have described above:

• the third party is the lawful owner by statute (whether they did an HPI check or not);
• you owe the HP company the outstanding balance on the agreement;
• you are in breach of contract for allowing or attempting to sell the car without their prior agreement;
• any monies due to you from the sale are a civil matter between you and the dealer - and if he has gone bankrupt/ceased trading, then good luck with that.

Problems for the new owner in obtaining the V5 are an irrelevance as far as the above is concerned. A V5 has nothing whatsoever to do with ownership.

How do you make the police take this seriosly??

Presumably by getting some of the others to also complain to the Police of the dealer's allegedly fraudulent activities. If necessary going higher than a desk officer or duty sergeant.

Even if he is prosecuted for fraud, you are unlikely to see your money back.

[austin8]

Yes the police have had many complaints, some stating the dealer has immitated there signiture! yet the police say its a civil matter. The companys in liquidation and the victims have to pay for the procedings, is that fair?

The department that I have been dealing with is a Police Sergeant of the volume crime department, surly if they are not sure they should pass on the relevent department, before they can say a crime has not been committed. Who should be informed, what level?

Yes hes a conman I have had contact with victims, going back 4 years, of vehicles that have hes never intended to pay for, all elderly! you only have to look at fraud act 2006 and he ticks box after box. The victims do not expect to get there money back, they what the police to take action, to stop him repeating, as himself or teaching others his trade.

The questions easy hes taken approx £60K a year with no intention of paying any, hes got 4 CCJ over the last 2 years and has still not payed, the police says this inst fraud (it is), How many more people are doing this? (why i might start tomorrow)

Back to the ownership of the car, The third party might not be inoccent! the police have had the vehilce for over 1 month! if it is as simply as you say the third party would have the vehicle. The reciept and the payment figures may not match, they may have given a back hander, ie the trader said i give a reciept for the full amount, but pay only 90% of the value in cash to avoid the taxman. The traders taken the cash for his own use, not the ltd company, and theres no proof of payment, only a reciept from a doggy trader. or other simular happenings.

[Nemesis_Drake]

Could you post the "contract" you made with the trader? minus names and addresses of course.