DVLA in the wrong

[Lula]

could you scan thr letters that they sent to you, first taking out personal details or other identifiers, and then we can see what they are trying to say

[hairdresser1]

darn technology..I couldnt copy and paste so the next best thing....!!!

'Enforcement Acton against Unlicensed Vehicles

Thank you for your email dated 14th October 2008, adressesd to the Customer Services Manager, Mrs ****. At the outset I should explain that it is not possible for Mrs **** to deal personally with all the correspondance addressed for her attention. As your concerns relate to enforcement action taken on your vehicle, your correspondance has been passed to me for reply as Wheelclamping Operations Manager.

If I may begin by explaining that your vehicle was impounded by our contractor NCP Services Ltd.

Before enforcement action is taken, a formal sighting has to be obtained of the vehicle on the public road. Section 1 (1) of the Vehicle Excise and registration Act (VERA) provides that 'a duty of excise shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle used or kept on any public road in Britain'. It is the responsibility of the contractor to determine the status of the land before enforcement action is taken.

When a vehicle is declared SORN the vehicle must be kept on private land. DVLA does ot provide advice about which areas are public which is private land. If the keeper does not own the land on which a vehicle is stored it is their responsibility to determine the exact staus and obtain permission from the land owner if necessary.

Once a vehicle is impounded, the Agency writes out to registered keepers, giving the oppurtunity to claim the vehicle, advising of the vehicles disposal if not claimed by the stipulated date.

In view of your claims regarding the status of the land, I have forwarded a copy of your complaint to the National Operations Manager NCP Services Ltd in order for further investigations to be made.

I hope this clarifies matters for you
Your sincerely

*********'

yeah, as clear as mud!!!!
All I did was send copy of sorn notice, copy of letter saying judgement against me was dropped and I asked if they would compensate me and settle finance of the car they took.....is this one of their ploys to confuse me???...cause it darn well has!!!

[MrShed]

I would suggest you write back.

Inform them that as a contractor, they will know that ultimately they are legally responsible for their actions, as the contract is legally acting on behalf of the DVLA. Failure to provide proof of said formal sighting proving unequivocally that your SORN car was, in fact, on a publically maintained highway, or FULL settlement in the amount of £xxxx(where £xxxx is the value of the car you destroyed unlawfully, and £xxxx my out of pocket expenses in pursuing this matter), within 7 days, will result in legal action being taken through the courts against yourselves for the full amount plus costs and punitive damages. In addition, you will report the DVLA to the police for criminal damage, and also consult with a solicitor regarding charges of theft.

then do it.

Did they in fact write to you giving opportunity to collect the vehicle?

I knew someone in a very similar position. She went home to France for a year to look after her mum and SORNED her car. Parked it on a parking bay of a friends (social housing association maintained) property and a DVLA camera van came along and clamped it. They came back for it took it saying it has been crushed - a 2 year old BMW convertible. She asked DVLA to pay £26,000 to buy a replacement but was fobbed off with excuses. She spoke to solicitor (on home insurance cover) who told her to buy a new car like for like and give the receipt. DVLA paid her costs, her new car, tank of petrol, interest (8% for one year) taxis and solicitors fees. There were complications, The DVLA ignored initial requests to pay for a new car and challenged litigation retrospectively and the order needed to be served on the DVLA's bank who paid on DVLA's behalf under 3rd party debt order. The car wasn’t crushed after all, it was auctioned and later recovered during a routine Police traffic stop and arrested the driver. She had completed the V5 as scrapped and caused it to show an error to an ANPR van. Police later confirmed the car was bought for £1,100 by someone employed as a bailiff.

Unless DVLA has an official complaints procedure then you need to file a claim under the Civil Procedure Rules and ask DVLA to pay you the replacement cost of your car, your costs and any finance charges.

[crem]

Originally Posted by BURP

Police later confirmed the car was bought for £1,100 by someone employed as a bailiff.

Why am I not shocked at that piece of your statement BURP.

She is in Toulouse and spoke to her today, she had more interesting information. I'll post later. About how to sue a government agency when the law says you cant. Her solicitor played a nifty trick and screwed DVLA well & truly.

More info. There are photos and I'll try and get these as well. The car was parked on a marked parking bay when it was lifted by DVLA. She left the UK with the car SORNed but DVLA said they car was parked on a public highway and they had crushed it. Her insurer couldn't help because the policy was suspended as Car Laid Up, she contacted house insurer who assigned Solicitors Irwin Mitchell who assigned a DVLA expert. They asked DVLA to pay £26K in 14 days and DVLA didn't comply. DVLA sent automaton demands to her home address for back taxes, then a fine for failure to display tax disc, and another fine for falsely declaring SORN. Solicitor filed proceedings and DVLA ignored them and got Judgement by default £31K approx inc costs. DVLA ignored that as well (aparently because we cannot sue a government department) and a 3rd party debt order was served on DVLA's bank who paid. Bank told DVLA of the Order and debit and to contact the creditor if they had any questions. DVLA then filed N244 to set aside the judgement but was dismissed because they admitted crushing the car and pejured themselves. (lying on oath saying the car was crushed before Police seized it in a traffic stop)

It turns out that

1.DVLA ignore court documents routinely because a law says nobody can sue a government department, so instead they serve papers on their bank instead – who has an obligation to comply.

2. You can serve on a PO Box address. You don't need a physical address because enforcement is served on the bank and not on a government agency.

3. DVLA admits to crushing the car – which means they have damaged the car beyond economical repair whilst in their possession. Owner completes V5 as scrapped.

4. DVLA only discover you win when they get a letter from their bank. It says they have had to comply with an Order and debit their account and contact the creditor if they have any questions.

5. The car wasn't crushed after all, it was given to a bailiff who was using it as his own personal transport.

6. The car couldn't be crushed anyway, it had a pressurised LPG fuel tank in the boot – and would have blown up most of the breakers yard with it. (this was how it came to my attention, I just switched to LPG)

7. DVLA will usually defend a case retrospectively.

8. DVLA said car was on a public road because the parking bay lines were faded and a few cms of a near side wheel were in contact with the public road, no photographs.

Result, a cheque for £31K and her old car back. DVLA says they will appeal and say both cars are overvalued by more than 200%. DVLA contends owner was negligent in paying a BMW dealer list price for a replacement car and did not make reasonable efforts to reduce the price.

A neighbour took photos of a DVLA (Ford Transit) van with cameras on each corner of its roof and an operative clamping the car, and a DVLA (NCP) truck lifting the car by its wheels using a lorry-mounted crane off a private parking bay. I'll try and get the pictures.

I have the solicitor's letter if anyone wants to see it. It's very succinct and to the point. Excellent piece of work.

[hairdresser1]

I still havent recieved a reply from NCP, I am right p***ed off..I think they think I'm just gonna let this go, but I darn well wont.What should I do now? Write to them again, or get back in touch with DVLA?

[postggj]

dvla know they are in deep do do over this. that is why no reply
they have had the 28 days to investigate your complaint.
if i were you, respond to dvla enclosing a copy of the last correspondence.
enclose a 14 day letter before action and state if they will not respond with a final decision a n1 claim will be issued without further notice

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[postggj]

its dvla who are liable, not ncp

[Conniff]

AND if the car is still on the road after you have been told it was crushed, (which is probably what DVLA were told, though it should have been flagged on their computer), then it is theft and should be reported to the police.

[lukeinlufbra]

Apologies for the thread necromancy but this seems the most relevant place to post.

I declared SORN in June 2008 and parked my car near my house on a road which has dual designation of both private and unclassified i.e. part adopted, part unadopted by the Local Highways Agency (I was on the private bit, naturally). Where it sat quite happily until early January this year when an E/O for the DVLA filled out a CLE 2/6 i.e. vehicle seen not displaying a Vehicle Excise Licence.

The car was clamped and then towed whilst I was on holiday. So the first I heard of it was when I returned to find no car(!) and a letter stating that unless I pay the release fee, storage fees and Surety fee (by that point c.£500) then my car would be crushed within 7 days.

The contractor for the DVLA who did the actual impounding was NCP, however it seems there was no way you could appeal against their impounding without first paying their charges. As the car was old I chalked it up to experience and (foolishly) thought that the car would get scrapped and that would be the end of it.

Then the court summons came through... for the day of my birthday. Thanks, DVLA!

The only evidence the summons provided was the CLE 2/6 ticket stating that the car had no tax and was on 'X' road on 'X' date. No photos etc were submitted.
I attended court in my finest first offence suit, pleaded not guilty and presented the DVLA Enforcement Manager (didn't even get to see a magistrate) with evidence, gained from the Highways agency website, that the road was part private and suggested that their reporting E/O was correct in that that car wasn't displaying a VEL tax disc, was correct that my car was on 'X' road, but was 'mistaken' that it was Public Highway/adopted road. The Enforcement Manager said 'Oh' and went for an adjournment until the 2nd of June to re-examine evidence.

After 3 weeks with no contact, I called them last week only to find my assigned E.M. was on holiday with no update to the file, just an evidence request. I called them again today to find that a letter has been dispatched today saying that they're 'not proceeding' with the case. I assume that as the matter was now in court the burden of proof was on them rather than before where it was solely on me, and the evidence they needed was lacking.

Great news obviously, but when I asked about reparations for my car (which thanks to the governments new scrap-a-banger incentive would be worth in excess of 2k) they suggested contacting the Clamping contractor.

Anyone encountered this situation before?
Are they just trying to fob me off?
Are NCP likely to just refer me back to the DVLA (as they are contracted by the DVLA)?
Any other advice?

Thanks,

Luke

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by lukeinlufbra

I attended court in my finest first offence suit, pleaded not guilty and presented the DVLA Enforcement Manager (didn't even get to see a magistrate) with evidence, gained from the Highways agency website, that the road was part private and suggested that their reporting E/O was correct in that that car wasn't displaying a VEL tax disc, was correct that my car was on 'X' road, but was 'mistaken' that it was Public Highway/adopted road. The Enforcement Manager said 'Oh' and went for an adjournment until the 2nd of June to re-examine evidence.

Therein lies your mistake. You should not have spoken to the "Enforcement Manager"; much less told him the details of your defence. You should have let the case come before the Magistrates and that would have been the end of it.

After 3 weeks with no contact, I called them last week only to find my assigned E.M. was on holiday with no update to the file, just an evidence request. I called them again today to find that a letter has been dispatched today saying that they're 'not proceeding' with the case. I assume that as the matter was now in court the burden of proof was on them rather than before where it was solely on me, and the evidence they needed was lacking.

If you have an adjournment until tomorrow, you must go to the Court - just to ensure that the DVLA doesn't go ahead and obtain a conviction in your absence. You cannot rely on a verbal " We're not proceeding" from some nobody in DVLA.

When they fail to offer any evidence, ask for your costs to be reimbursed by the prosecution.

Great news obviously, but when I asked about reparations for my car (which thanks to the governments new scrap-a-banger incentive would be worth in excess of 2k) they suggested contacting the Clamping contractor.

Anyone encountered this situation before?
Are they just trying to fob me off?
Are NCP likely to just refer me back to the DVLA (as they are contracted by the DVLA)?
Any other advice?

Thanks,

Luke

One thing at a time, get the Court case out of the way first.

[lukeinlufbra]

Thanks for your thoughts.


I know what you mean about not seeing a Mag. straight away, but I'm pretty sure that as soon as I presented my evidence the prosecution would have asked for an adjournment anyway and we're back to where we are now.

I have had the same inkling to go down there tomorrow to make sure a 'clerical error' doesn't result in a conviction. And maybe it's paranoia but it does seem strange that they'd send out a letter only the day before I'm due in court.

I have however asked someone I know who works in the court to independently confirm the letter is on my file and I just phoned the enforcement office again and have spoken to my assigned EM whilst recording the phone call. He even suggested (when pushed) contacting DVLA customer services re: compensation for my crushed car.

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[patdavies]

Originally Posted by lukeinlufbra

I know what you mean about not seeing a Mag. straight away, but I'm pretty sure that as soon as I presented my evidence the prosecution would have asked for an adjournment anyway and we're back to where we are now.

1) it would be unlikely that an adjournment would have been granted once the prosecution had started its case. They are suppose to be fully prepared.

2) you could have resisted the adjournment anyway.

[lukeinlufbra]

Mini Update:

Finally got the 'Withdrawal letter' through the post. Is as follows...

Dear Mr. E

As an out of court settlement has now been paid, it is the Agency's intention to withdraw the summons against you for hearing at 'X' Magistrates Court on 02/06/2009, in relation to the alleged offence concerning motor vehicle J******.

Consequently, it will not be necessary for you to attend the hearing on that date.

Should you need to contact us, please quote the registration mark of the vehicle.

Yours sincerely

Mrs. P. W
(On behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport)

I'm taking this as conclusive proof that the DVLA either make inept mistakes or, what's worse, are liars, as to date I've paid them exactly £0 and zero pence. Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but I get the impression that they sent out this letter so that when I start asking for money for my car they can fob me off as having accepted their 'punishment'.

[lukeinlufbra]

Oh, and for the record, if I was in the same situation again, where I was as sure of my case as I am now then no, I wouldn't have gone down the route I did. I would have held firm to get this sorted in front of a magistrate first time around.

But then I guess that's how the DVLA make their cash... take law-abiding citizens into court for their first time and try and scare them into paying money.

[crem]

Originally Posted by lukeinlufbra

I'm taking this as conclusive proof that the DVLA either make inept mistakes or, what's worse, are liars, as to date I've paid them exactly £0 and zero pence. Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but I get the impression that they sent out this letter so that when I start asking for money for my car they can fob me off as having accepted their 'punishment'.

I agree, and I think I would rebutt their claim that "an out of court settlement has been made". It clearly implies you have admitted guilt and paid whatever reduced fine they agreed to not take you to court (where they imply they would have won anyway) and in doing so you consequently would have no right to claim compensation for your "stolen" car.

Better legal experts on here than me may give better advice, but I think I would be sending a Letter Before Action to the DVLA stating you have agreed to no such "out of court settelment" and that in the absence of being able to present your defence to a court, you take their letter to be an admission of their error and as such, hold them liable for the loss of your car and associated costs.

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[vivwatts911]

Hi,

I have a complicated story about the DVLA ripping me off. I sold a motorbike to a guy (my first vehicle sale in the UK) and was assured that the buyer would take care of re-registering the V5 etc etc

A couple months down the line I get a fine, and have to give a reason to the cops as to why I'm not responsible, so I explain the story and say that I expected the new owner to register it as promised. The only evidence I had was a receipt of the sale. Cops accept this and say it's the ned of it, I'm not liabel to pay the fine, and they accept that I am no longer the registered keeper.

Then months down the line I get a letter from DVLA requesting £35 for not registering it. I replied by saying that the cops excused me completely and made it clear that I was absolved of any further obligation. DLVA response was that the cops don't tell them anything and it was my responsibility to do so. I replied by saying that sure the Police, as civil servants and a government agency, would have highlighted anything I should do, in the knowledge that I was new to the process, and indeed new to the UK - I made it VERY clear to the cops that I had NO idea how to proceed, and even asked for their advice. They simply assured me that the whole thing was resolved, and I was never liable to pay the fine.

Now DVLA keeps fighting me on the issue, and so I paid the £35 fine to end the pointless communication. Am I now able to claim that money back? Can I use the doctrine of promisory estoppel, or will my action be considered not as a defence? While I will be a claimant, it is merely a response of being unfairly pursued.

I would appreciate any and all advice on this.

Sincerely,

Viv Watts
vivwatts911@hotmail.com
07921384746

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by vivwatts911

Hi,

I have a complicated story about the DVLA ripping me off. I sold a motorbike to a guy (my first vehicle sale in the UK) and was assured that the buyer would take care of re-registering the V5 etc etc

It is not the new keeper's responsibility and there are actually benefits for him in not updating DVLA.

It is the registered keeper's responsibility to send the V5 to DVLA and gibe the new keeper the green slip from it. DVLA will then send the new keeper his own V5.

Even if it was your first time, al this is fully explained on the V5

Now DVLA keeps fighting me on the issue, and so I paid the £35 fine to end the pointless communication. Am I now able to claim that money back? Can I use the doctrine of promisory estoppel, or will my action be considered not as a defence? While I will be a claimant, it is merely a response of being unfairly pursued.

I would appreciate any and all advice on this.

Since you have paid it, that is an end to the matter. The 'fine' that you have paid is instead of going to Court. Paying it admits the offence and there the matter ends. If you wished to contest it, you should have forced DVLA to court.

Lastly, I suggest that you edit your post and remove your contact details.