SORN Statements

[JohnH2008]

Researching my problem on the Internet drew me to this wonderful forum.
I have been reading of many similar cases to mine on ConsumerActionGroup 'Consumer Forums' and hope I can contribute and draw comfort from this informative site.

My problem is the infamous 'Sorn Statement' as required by DVLA.

As in many similar cases, I duly returned the statuary V11 Relicence or SORN as demanded. As you may be aware, you just tick a single box and send to DVLA. Six weeks later I received an £80.00 'supplementary penalty' as I had "NOT declared SORN". No politeness, no reminder in case of non delivery, no questions on whether or not I had been using the vehicle on the road,.. no nothing. Just PAY!!!

I rang the expensive number given and spoke to someone who as much as said "everyone tries that one!".

I asked why they had'nt sent a reminder explaining they had'nt received the SORN, she said that they were not obliged to so and that I should have sent it back. After stating that I HAD sent it back she went on to say that I should have contacted them after "four weeks" if I had'nt received an 'acknowledgement letter'. "Where does it say that?" I asked. "On the V11 Tax Disc reminder/SORN leaflet" she replied. " There is a telephone number on the back of the V11 you should ring if the acknowledgement letter is not received by you after four weeks". "Is that the same V11 form I sent back to you in the first place?" I dared ask. "Yes," says she. " I see" says I. "That means, even though I comply with your demand to send the form back, I still have to check whether our wonderfully competant Royal Mail has actually delivered it, or, to discover that it has it joined one of the 14.4 miliion...YES 14.4,MILLION... letters 'lost' in the post". " Yes" she replies.
"What is the number on the back of the V11 that I should have rung?" I asked. "I don't know!" she retorted, " Its on the back of every V11!!". "I accept that," says I, ......"but I sent that to you six weeks ago!".

Does'nt Monty Python spring to mind?.

I have decided to meet them in court and hopefully expose them for what they are.... Capita employees!. (Capita is the company who also collect your TV licence fees because the BBC and the Government are too incompetant to collect it themselves?) They have given them powers way beyond their remit in order to make as much money as possible using the old excuse that "a small minority (around 1-2%) " still try to evade paying their dues. If it is a "small minority"...why punish the other 98% !!!!!?. Why create criminals out of nothing!!!.

I will let you know how I get on. Hearing at County Court, Preston. 17th September, 2008.

[foolishgirl]

Hope you got a proof of posting John?
Ironic that it's also accepted by the courts as proof of delivery despite the 14.4 million lost ones, eh?!
Good luck...

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome, JohnH.

I'll move this thread to the appropriate Forum.

Regards.

Scott.

[S C O R N]

Hard luck - join the club.
I suggest you try writing to them along the lines that I did - see 'Repeal the SORN laws'. I suspect that it wiil then get dealt with by a 'proper' civil servant and not a job's worth contractor on a bonus scheme!

If you do go to court there are a number of areas worth highlighting. The power to impose a legal penalty without legal process is considered by many as an infringment of EU human rights -see previous posts. My own opinion is that the law is redundant as it has no useful purpose, other than to create more criminals and raise revenue. It also presumes the guilt of keeping an untaxed vehicle on the public road by demanding a statement of innocence - reversing the basic principle of ' innocent until proven guilty'. If you have explained that you have fulfilled your liabilities and they do not accept it, then they are calling you a liar!
How can the authorities expect the public to have respect for law and order, when they impose such complicated, and unreasonable proceedures to entrap the public by default into criminality.

Good luck with the Ministry of Silly Squawks.

[Conniff]

If you look at this forum and the hundreds of others that have DVLA questions you will see that by far the biggest complaint is the DVLA saying they have not received it.

If the 14.4 million letters lost each year is correct, that works out at 14 million of DVLAs and .4 million for all the rest of the UKs mail.
There just cannot be that many DVLA letters falling down into the workings of the post office machines, they would have seized by now.

I am totally conviced that the DVLA ditch a percentage of their mail on a daily basis.

If that is not the case then the people who work there are the dregs of the gutter and are so thick that they don't know how to enter data into a computer. Of course it could be a combination of both.

One thing is certain, they are under direct orders from this government to make a certain amount of money each year.

[JohnH2008]

CONNIFF:-

"If the 14.4 million letters lost each year is correct, that works out at 14 million of DVLAs and .4 million for all the rest of the UKs mail.
There just cannot be that many DVLA letters falling down into the workings of the post office machines, they would have seized by now."


I got the info by Googling "lost letters, Royal Mail". Its a BBC article and refers to the 'lost' 14.4 million letters as being HALF of the year previous. However, it is fair to assume that a huge amout of letters 'disappear' EVERY year and it does'nt matter that Royal Mail say that it is only 0.01% of the total. Its people like me and 14.4 million others who have to deal with the results.

As far as I am concerned, I have complied with the law by sending back the SORN to DVLA. It is not my fault that Royal Mail has not delivered and indeed, not my fault if DVLA have misplaced it. It must be against my human rights to be expected to remember a telephone number on a form which I posted to them a month earlier?!. ( I know there's a 'smart a*se' out there that actually writes these things down...but I'm normal)
What really P's me off though, is there is NO warning of a penalty. There is absolutely nothing in ANY of the literature they send, about a £80.00 penalty. Even on the Relicence/SORN form. Surely that against the law?

I now realise that, although these forms are trivial and inconvenient to most of us, they are treated as one step below execution as far as the DVLA is concerned. This may be the final straw in my thoughts to emigrate.

PS. On this, or another forum, someone asks "to who, and how much information is 'shared' by DVLA". I would suggest to those interested, to go to Department for Transport website. Click on 'Information Charter'
Click on link....'Who we share information with and why.

You're going to be shocked......are'nt you?

[gwc1000]

I would advise never SORN a vehicle by post. Always do it online. You get an immediate email receipt that way.
It is very strange the amount of postal SORN declarations that DVLA seem to lose. Also strange is that I don't recall anyone ever posting here saying that they had paid the £80 "fine" and DVLA claim that they hadn't received that. Those £80 cheques always manage to find their way there.

[Conniff]

Originally Posted by JohnH2008

I got the info by Googling "lost letters, Royal Mail". Its a BBC article and refers to the 'lost' 14.4 million letters as being HALF of the year previous. However, it is fair to assume that a huge amout of letters 'disappear' EVERY year and it does'nt matter that Royal Mail say that it is only 0.01% of the total. Its people like me and 14.4 million others who have to deal with the results.

I wasn't doubting the figures John, I was saying that 14 million of the lost letters must be addressed to DVLA as they claim they never receive them, and the .4 million is all the other letters lost.

[JohnH2008]

Sorry Conniff, Classic case of not reading properly!

Loved the Danny Kiernan way of doing things and have printed off the Human Rights posting. I will probably use that as part of my 'defence'

At this moment in time I am trying to research into which law allows a financial penalty to be imposed by ANY organisation without any sort of warning. I cannot find anything on the subject... help!. Even the hated Clampers leave warning signs with 'fee's' posted. Litter louts get a written warning on lamp posts, likewise parking penalties. It is a ridiculous situation when, in a democratic country, you can be penalised financially or otherwise for complying with the law.

To 'GWC 1000'.

This is the first time I have ever declared SORN. I was not aware that it was better to declare SORN online. I just assumed our beloved Royal Mail would deliver it to our beloved DVLA in the normal fashion and everything would be OK.
The 'appeal' letter DVLA sent to me with the £80.00 demand was just wasted time and postage. (Strange that they received that!?). Their reply to my appeal was an exact copy of the first letter offering an appeal.

I am so incensed about being treated as a criminal that I may really take this to the Court Of Human Rights.
Also, I am almost definately going to send THEM a CCJ for £80.00 plus £30.00 costs as I still have'nt received an acknowledgement letter from them about my change of vehicle three months ago. I have received the change of ( cherished) registration certificate and the garage has received theirs...... I wonder if it has got lost in the post?.

[gwc1000]

Be careful if you haven't received an acknowledgement of change of ownership. On the V5 it advises if you haven't received such an acknowledgement within four weeks to contact DVLA. The car may still be registered to you.
I think you are right to assume Royal Mail would deliver your SORN declaration, and if the truth was known it was delivered.

[dave]

I think it's time Capita were removed from this administrative duty. Clearly, they have no interest in carrying themselves in an orderly manner and if they are not simply just another arm of HMRC then they must be fully trained in incompetence.

I had a very similar story to the OP. There was no way on earth I was going to pay the 'fine' for something where I had complied with the law.

However, they don't take you to court for not complying with the law, they take you for not supplying the information which you are supposed to send with the fine, which sort of begs the question, if they are actually acting within the law by 'forcing' you to check their competence.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I went to court (in my absence - I was starting a new job that very day), got fined 530 quid. I also wrote a letter explaining the circumstances.

Apparently, yes, you know it's coming, the court 'didn't recieve' that letter. They did, however, receive my plea which was in the same envelope.

It's a farce, honestly.

I refused to pay the court fine, as clearly, the whole system is set up just to extract as much cash as they can from the law-abiding. I was arrested, and thanks to an A-level law book, found that the warrant was issued incorrectly and not legal, and had it overturned. Still I had to walk 10 miles home though. I was re-arrested the next day.

I got Michael Howard involved at the time, and wrote to anyone and everyone exposing the DVLA sham/scam for what it is, and eventually I had the fines 'waived' - to which I wrote back saying I don't want the fines to be 'waived' as that implies that I am still guilty of an offence, where I am clearly not.

Guess what?

They 'never recieved' that letter either.

Personally, I don't believe the Royal Mail are that ineffective.

So, in short, I had to get the former Home Secretary and (at the time) the Tory party leader, write at least 15 letters and get arrested twice, learn about the law to get the warrant overturned, had to walk back from the police station despite being wrongly arrested, and all because the DVLA want to extract money and criminilise honest, working people.

It has to be changed.

[Conniff]

I have said many times Dave that I just do NOT believe that Royal Mail is responsible for this many lost letters, I also don't believe it is incompetance by the DVLA, I firmly believe that the DVLA are purposely ditching letters and all for the sake of money making.

[dave]

Yep. Agreed.

Any decent government would look after the people of the country's best interests, instead they farm out things like this to Crapita so their 'mates' can make obscene profits at the same time as filling their coffers at law-abiding tax payers' expense.

Something needs to be done about the DVLA.

[JohnH2008]

Just a bit extra on the SORN saga. Just sifting through all the details for my court appearance next month and I spotted this little 'gem'.

With the arrogant reply to my 'appeal' letter came a few standard "Important Information!" forms one of which was an INF 51.
Casting my eye over I noticed a small anomaly which may prove to be significant.

Under the heading 'How to make a Sorn statement', the last paragraph dictates that:-
"Once you have made a SORN you will be sent an acknowledgement letter within four weeks confirming the details. If the acknowledgement letter is NOT received AFTER four weeks you must contact Customer Enquiries Group on 0870 240 0010 immediately".

Compare that with the instruction on the back of the latest V11 under (SORN), "WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU". This dictates:-

"If you do not use or keep your vehicle on the public road you must make a SORN. You should receive an acknowledgement within four weeks of making the SORN. Contact DVLA Customer Enquiries if you do not receive an acknowledgement letter. (see section G for contact details.)"

Note how the "not received after four weeks" is conveniently missing.

Incompetence or what!!??

They can't even speak the Queens English never mind steal your money properly.

I may ask the DVLA representative in court.. "exactly what date AFTER four weeks did you require me to contact!?".

What does everyone else think?.
Is it a case of Mr Loophole Freeman?.

[S C O R N]

Here are a few questions I'd like to ask a DVLA 'crat. Feel free to use them.
"Mr DVLA, do you own a television?" Probable answer "yes".
"Mr DVLA, if you decided that the programs were not worth watching, do you think it would be reasonable to have to write every year to the TV licencing authority stating that you have not used your TV, on penalty of a £40 fine, and back payment of the licence fee?" Probable answer " ".
"Mr DVLA, do you own a shotgun or firearm?" Probable answer "No".
"Would you agree that it is reasonable to insist that shotguns and firearms are licenced, even if they are not used?" Probable answer "Yes".
"Please explain then, why it is necessary to SORN annually, but only relicence a gun every 5 years?" Probable answer "".
"Mr DVLA, do you own a fishing rod?" Whether answer yes or no -
" If you didn't use" or "If you had one and didn't use it, would you think it reasonable to have to give notice annually to the 'Enviroment Agency' that you hadn't used it on penalty of £40 fine and back fee?" Probable answer "".
" Then why the hell should I have to SORN every year!!!!"

[foolishgirl]

Those are EXACTLY the questions you should be asking (we should ALL be asking!) your MP!