Repeal the SORN laws!

[S C O R N]

Hi folks - My 1st post so please bear with me.

Like many in other posts, I have just received a fixed penalty notice for a SORN offence, the forth since its introduction in 1998. Two of the previous vehicles had been properly SORNed, and they received groveling apology’s, because I had kept copies to prove my compliance. The third was withdrawn without comment after I filled in the new owner on the back and sent a copy of the original V5 with the new owners signature. Moral – copy and keep everything for at least 18 months. Odd that they need to print statement pro-forma’s on the back, almost an admission of frequent mistakes!

This one is slightly different. I purchased the vehicle in SORNed status, and didn’t realise that I needed to reSORN. I assumed that a renewal notice would follow once I had received the new V5 or when renewal was due. Not the case, which I resent strongly, as I consider my record of 45years driving with proper road tax, insurance, and MOT, and with a clean licence, to be infinitely better than the standards of competence of DVLA ( who get paid from our tax!)

Perhaps I should explain that up to 2003 I ran a small rural garage, which ceased to be viable largely due to the ever increasing bureaucracy of the control freaks, hence my anger. At the start of SORN in 1998, I wrote to DVLA, warning of the problems, and stating that any vehicle licensed to me without a tax disc should be considered to be “off road”. Is that not an “off road notice”?

The declared purpose of SORN, is “to identify vehicle excise duty (VED) evaders and assist police and authorities with combating vehicle crime” and “the Agency does not intend to persecute honest motorists”. I would suggest that SORN fails to achieve this, and its real purpose is to extract more funds for the treasury by taxing the absent minded and those with better things to do than study unintelligible legislation.

SORN is firstly a redundant law. A vehicle on the public highway must display a current VED disc, and a record of that discs purchase is registered at DVLA. If the purchase is not registered, which can be equally verified, then the vehicle should not be on the road. To have to declare the vehicle is not on the road is unnecessary, and in fact reverses one of the basic principles of English law, that assumes innocence until guilt is proven. THIS LAW ASSUMES GUILT UNTIL YOU DECLARE INNOCENCE.

Secondly, the issue of a penalty, without due process is probably illegal under EU human rights legislation – see ‘ Template letter for SORN fines’ this forum 29Sept2007- regardless of the circumstances of each individual case.

As with a lot of recent legislation, this law is ill conceived, has many unconsidered and unintentional side effects, penalizes the innocent while doing little to deter the criminal. The best crime prevention is to catch criminals and impose deterring penalties, not to turn innocent members of the public into criminals by default. Still, I suppose it makes the crime detection statistics look good!

I have replied to DVLA pointing out the above (thanks to danny_kiernan), and await their response. In the mean time I am considering if it’s not possible to get this legislation repealed. I had intended to write an E-petition to put on the 10 Downing Street web site, but it already has one, which unfortunately is not very well presented. Has anyone any suggestions, and do you think there would be popular support for the repeal of SORN.

Regards all, SCORN .

[Conniff]

I fully agree with your post scorn, but there is one glaring error:

has many unconsidered and unintentional side effects

I for one don't believe that at all, this is a well thought out legislation and the side effects that you think were probably not intentional or were not considered were probably the first things they considered.

As you say 'if it has no tax there records will show that' and having to declare that is has no tax on top of not renewing it is a trap. Sorn does not guarantee that the car is not on the road.

“to identify vehicle excise duty (VED) evaders and assist police and authorities with combating vehicle crime” and “the Agency does not intend to persecute honest motorists”.

Some time ago I forgot to renew a sorn and never received the reminder. I wrote and they rejected me.

I then quoted the part of the legislation quoted above and asked them if they were infering that I was a 'tax evader' or 'criminal'. They replied that they would take no further action and that it was cancelled.

So they are infering that you are an evader or criminal, but they wont confirm it in writing obviously afraid of the consequences of making such a statement.

Whatever you decide to do, I will be right behind you in your efforts, but you must know in the back of your mind that anything anyone does will not make this government change their pig headed pound signs before the eyes attitude to raising capital.

[daarab]

Here Here

[clever dicky]

I recently got clamped and fined. Properly sornd etc. But they debate the 'road' was a public one. I dont.
Consequently had to re-tax in middle of month and was given a tax that started the begining of next. Was seen and fined for not having tax etc.at the time.
Its a lot more winded you can read my post, but I'm disputing this and expect to go to court.

The upshot is insurance companies can organise a system of charge from the second you pay, not the nearest month for christ sake. The whole system is a joke.
But then what few people realise this IS the Napoleonic 'state comes first' system of europe, the EU wants for all and Britain is swinging by its balls.

Good luck with any protest, I'm right beside ya.

[S C O R N]

U P D A T E

DVLA reply:-
Dear Mr
Vehicle registration: #########
Thankyou for your letter of 14`h July 2008, regarding enforcement action taken against you, I am replying as the Office Manager at the Area Enforcement Centre. Firstly I feel it is important to explain why a Late Licensing penalty has been issued against you.
Under Continuous Registration (CR) the registered keeper of a vehicle has a legal requirement to ensure that, at all times, it is licensed or a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) declaration is made. When a licence expires on a vehicle the registered keeper is immediately required to re-licence, declare SORN, notify disposal or export.
All vehicle registration and licensing in the UK is governed by the Vehicle Excise and Registration
Act (VERA) 1994 and the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002. The Act
states that all mechanically propelled vehicles registered under the Act must be continually licensed
or have a SORN declaration made against them. The law is clear: a SORN declaration is required if
a vehicle is registered and kept off road in Great Britain and the licence expires or is surrendered.

Due to systems restrictions we do not hold information going back to the periods prior to 2005 mentioned in your letter so therefore I cannot comment any further on those particular cases. With regards to the enforcement action for vehicle registration mark ############ I note that the case has been closed and an apology letter sent at the time however this is a separate issue.
Every month a scan of the records detects any vehicles, which are unlicensed. Where an investigation of the vehicle record shows that a keeper has not complied with their legal requirements, an automatic penalty is issued inviting them to settle the matter out of court by payment of penalty or put any exceptional circumstances in writing.


Your comment that the DVLA's action in this enforcement case is in contravention of your Human Rights is noted. I must advise that the Agency believes that the imposition of the supplement is lawful and that the provisions contained in Section 7A of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 are not in conflict with the Human Rights Act. Article 8 (2) provides that there may be interference by a public authority when it is necessary in a democratic society. Similarly, Article 1 of the First Protocol does not impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties. It is also worth noting that the CR legislation was drafted after the Human Rights Act and has therefore been drafted in accordance with it to ensure full compliance.
You have mentioned that you never received a renewal notice. The dual-purpose Vehicle Licence Renewal Reminder/SORN declaration (form V11) which is sent out when the vehicle's licence or SORN declaration is due to expire acts as notification of the actions required to remain within the law. The V11 is designed to simplify re-licensing or the declaration of SORN. I should point out that there is no statutory obligation for the Agency to produce the V11 form. The receipt of this reminder should not be relied upon in any way, and its absence does not remove the onus from the vehicle keeper to ensure that statutory obligations are met in this regard. Non-receipt does not constitute a defence against a CR offence.
However taking into consideration your points in the letter on this occasion only the case has been closed and no further action will be taken. I also note from our records that a SORN declaration has now been made which began lst July 2008 and is due to expire on the 31st July 2009.
In closing, the Agency takes all complaints seriously and continually strive to improve customer service, and as an organisation the DVLA is strongly committed to providing customers with the best service possible. I trust that any future dealings with the Agency are trouble free.



Yours sincerely


( Sorry about the formating - I'm not familiar with OCR)

To summerise then -
" You pay us to ensure you comply with rules made by other people you pay, and if you don't we can make you pay even more. If we forget to remind you or make a mistake that causes you distress or to waste a lot of time at your expense, hard luck. We might begrudgeingly apolygise if there's nothing better to do".

Seriously though, I still cannot see any purpose of SORN which would not exist by default without the law, other than to extract money. Can anyone justify it? Does it not assume that every one that is the keeper of a vehicle is guilty of tax evasion until they prove themselves innocent, in direct contradiction of the basis of English law? Any lawyers out there?


S C O R N

[Conniff]

You say there is no need for SORN, but a vehicle that has an expired tax disc could be anywhere in the country and be used for criminal activity.

When SORN is declared, the address where that vihicle is stored is submitted so they know where all vehicles are.
I know that a SORN does not guarantee that the vehicle is at the address declared, but it is more likely to be and should be available at a moments notice for a spot check.

I agree with the principle of SORN, but not their inflexibility which just stinks of a means of raising revenue.

[S C O R N]

The V5 registration document has the address already on file. SORN only confirms the vehicle is not on the road, not where it is. Without SORN the same conclusion can be assumed from the V5 address. In any event, there's nothing to stop a SORNed vehicle being driven on the road be criminals!

[Conniff]

The SORN form asks where the vehicle is being kept, or it did the last time I filled one in.

[S C O R N]

Not on the current V890, and definately not if you do it on line. Assumes the registered keepers address. If, like me, you handle a lot of classic and historic vehicles, which are tax exempt anyway, its nothing but a complete pain in the exhaust pipe!

[jonnythehorse]

ive just got a 1966 vespa and i dont have to sorn it

[Conniff]

Gizza lift to work

[S C O R N]

Hi Jonnyhayburner,
I assume the Vespa was bought with a V5 and will be registered in your name. Caution - this is where I got caught. If it has not been on the road since 1997, then it is probably not on DVLA radar so no problem until you tax it for the road (historic vehicle, tax exempt, but still has to display a disc!) If the previous owner has SORN'd it, then no problem till it expires. In theory you should get a renewal reminder, but if you don't and the previous owner never told you when it's due, the first you will know is when the fixed penalty notice arrives. I would advise you check DVLA web site 'Vehicle Enquiry' to see if it is on the system, and I would SORN it on line anyway, and save the Email acknowledgement for proof if needed later.

[jonnythehorse]

it was last taxed in 81 so im ok be on the road soon tho
and connif that would be a 2 day round trip for me, a nice holiday