Car Bought With Fake Tax Disc

[Gabriel2k]

Hello all,

My girlfriend bought a car from a private individual; it was sold as being with 12 months MOT and 3 months tax.

Now she didn’t receive a reminder from the DVLA and totally forgot to re-tax the car when the 3 months was up, so in hindsight it wasn’t surprising when the police pulled her over and issued her with a £60 fixed penalty ticket for driving without tax. They also informed her that they would report this to the DVLA and she would have to pay them for the period that the car was untaxed for…fair enough but this is what happened next.

She received a letter from the DVLA saying she had to pay £160, I rang the DVLA for her to ask why it was this much and was told that it is based on 1.5 of what the tax would have been plus a £30 fine. However the DVLA had worked this out from the time when my girlfriend originally bought the car and became the registered keeper back in 27-07-07, I asked why they had worked it out from that date when the tax hadn’t run out until 31-10-07 and they said that the previous owner had a tax disc refund issued on that vehicle on the 27-04-07 and therefore the vehicle hadn’t been taxed since my girlfriend bought it.

To cut a long story short the tax disc that came with the car appears to be fake or otherwise dodgy although it does appear totally genuine, correct license plate number etc, the DVLA want her to send them the tax disc so they can take a look at it, if it is a genuine tax disc then they will lower the amount my girlfriend has to pay based on the end date of 31-10-07, however if it turns out that the tax disc is dodgy they will still want the full £160 from my girlfriend.

I asked why they would still expect the full amount from my girlfriend arguing that the tax disc in the car was valid until 31-10-07 so any amount of the fine due before that date should go to the originally registered keeper of the vehicle, after all if the tax disc is a fake it is him that had put it in the car. The DVLA even refuse to send the tax disc back once they have examined it as they say they would need to destroy it so we wont even have that as evidence, although we will photocopy it before posting.

What I would like to know is if anybody has any advice as to what my girlfriend should do now, is there no way of getting the original keeper to pay the fine up to the point when the fake tax disc ran out? The DVLA didn’t even say they would investigate him for selling cars with fake tax discs.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[buzby]

I do know that when fake tax disks are an issue - all bets are off, it is the current registered keeper who takes the fall, as the misrepresentation was by the original seller. You don't say how the fraud was committed - if it was that the DVLA refunded the previous tax disk because the seller said it was 'lost', then the fraud was perpetrated by the original seller on the DVLA by misrepresenting the refund (and not enclosing the tax disc). I think there's still a chance you you might get the dates shifted if your favour if you complain loudly enough.

[Gabriel2k]

Thanks for the quick reply Buzby, when I spoke to the guy at the DVLA he said that when the refund was issued the tax disc was reported as "lost", so I will certainly make the point about the fraud being perpetrated by the original seller on the DVLA by misrepresenting the refund (and not enclosing the tax disc) in my letter when I send it off.

I wonder if I could bring a case against the previous keeper, I believe the law states that the car must be "as described", therefore if the tax disc was fake surely that is the same as describing the car as having tax when it did not? It was certainly part of the conditions of sale that it came with tax. Or am I just clutching at straws?

[Conniff]

Why not pay a visit to the police station first so that someone will see the original tax disc before you send it off. With all that the DVLA try to pull, I wouldn't be surprised if they then said that a photocopy was no good and you will need to prove that your sent them the original (after they have either destroyed or lost it).

[gwc1000]

Originally Posted by Gabriel2k

I wonder if I could bring a case against the previous keeper,

If the person who claimed a refund of the VED stating that it was lost, is the same person who sold you the car with the same VED, DVLA will certainly be prosecuting him.

[patdavies]

You can also sue the previous keeper for the amount of VED that is due until the expiration of the disk in your possession. The remaining VED was a part of your purchase and you have not received it.

If you do go down this route, possibly via small claims court, then you will need to hold onto the evidence for the DVLA and the VD disk that you received with the car. Simply inform the DVLA that you need the disk for evidence and it will be returned to them once the case is concluded.

Personally, I would definitely be going after the previous RK, in order to mitigate the fine now received.

[gwc1000]

Originally Posted by patdavies

Personally, I would definitely be going after the previous RK, in order to mitigate the fine now received.

I agree. I would ask DVLA for confirmation in writing that the application for the refund stated that the disc had been lost. This would help any action you bring against the seller.

[buzby]

Whilst the original RK was clearly the fraudster, whether it would be worthwhile attempting civil recovery from them is debatable. I'd argue that the properr tax disc was supplied with the vehicle - if the DVLA chhose to refund it, that is their decision but it should not disadvantage you as you purchased the vehicle and tax disk, and clearly the disc was not a fake. As such, it would be easier to get the DVLA to credit your with the correct amount, leaving them to pursue the fraudster should they wish. There is no guarantee that any civil action for the fraud would succeed, and could ultimately cost you more.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by buzby

Whilst the original RK was clearly the fraudster, whether it would be worthwhile attempting civil recovery from them is debatable. I'd argue that the properr tax disc was supplied with the vehicle - if the DVLA chhose to refund it, that is their decision but it should not disadvantage you as you purchased the vehicle and tax disk, and clearly the disc was not a fake. As such, it would be easier to get the DVLA to credit your with the correct amount, leaving them to pursue the fraudster should they wish. There is no guarantee that any civil action for the fraud would succeed, and could ultimately cost you more.

The chances of getting the credit from DVLA and leaving them to chase the previous RK are slightly less than zero. I would argue that the proper VED disk was not supplied by with the vehicle - it was voided by DVLA immediately it was refunded and reported lost.

Nobody is talking about a private (civil) prosecution for fraud - only a small claim for loss of value in the contract (ie the goods supplied were of a lesser value than agreed). Any prosecution is a matter for DVLA/CPS

[buzby]

Whether they (the DVLA) chase the previous keeper is up to them. But the purchaser did everything correctly, it is only the DVLAs sloopy admin - don't forget, he had the ORIGINAL disk, they need to indemnify themselves if a replacement (or cancellation) is fraudulent. Look at how share certificates work. Anyway, I was at my local LVO and gave the query to them as a hypothetical, the response was that each case is looked at on its merits, and if the new keeper was seen as blameness, they would not be disadvantaged.

[gwc1000]

I'm not so sure about that. Although the purchaser innocently bought the vehicle with an invalid tax disc, it could be argued that the moment he chose to use the disc himself, the responsibility of the authenticity of the disc lies with the user. I know it's impractical, but perhaps when buying a car with a current VED it might be an idea to check if it's valid with DVLA.
You cannot blame DVLA's "sloppy admin" for this one. The RK applied for a refund and signed to the effect that the disc was lost, he would have also declared if it was found at a later date it would be returned to DVLA. How are DVLA expected to know that he was pulling a fast one? For once I have a feeling that DVLA are blameless.

[Rob S]

Originally Posted by buzby

. I'd argue that the properr tax disc was supplied with the vehicle - if the DVLA chhose to refund it, that is their decision but it should not disadvantage you as you purchased the vehicle and tax disk, and clearly the disc was not a fake.

The major flaw with that argument is that DVLA have already noted that they have issued a refund in respect of the VEL. If the VEL was returned when the request for refund was made then your argument is a non starter.

[buzby]

We have to get one thing clear - the tax disc wasn't 'invalid' in the eyes of a 'reasonable' person. We'll never know the date the seller chose to perpetrate the fraud - but clearly the new owner had the required document. This would be like the Bank of England specifically invalidating one £50 note, stating the a note with this serial number has been withdrawn, whilst not bothering to remove the physical item. Taking this premise to its logical conclusion, ANYONE buying a vehicle with a tax disc might was well chuck it in the bin, as they have to way of knowing - short of clairvoyance - whether the seller has done this. Yes, you can check this online with the Registration Document serial no - but as we've discoverd, most folk don't bother keeping a note of this. Possesion of the disc is paramount to this rebuttal, and naturally NOT having the tax disc prevents this defence. Nevertheless the LVLO confirmed that such a case would be treated on its merits.

[patdavies]

Buzby,

I see where you are coming from, but your analogy fails. The BoE would not refund against a specific £50 and then void the note with a specific serial number. The opinion of a 'reasonable person' is simply not valid in law in this case - the RK is responsible for ensuring VED is paid, period. Ignorance is not a valid defence. No VED is an absolute offence

The VED status is easy to check on-line and the buyer should have the V5 in his hand shorty after purchasing.

The present RK has been driving with a voided VED disk as the VED was refunded to the previous RK. He may well have acted fraudulently, but that is not the concern of the present RK - that is a matter for the Police/DVLA

It may seem totally unfair, but the present RK is legally responsible, regardless of opinions otherwise. It really is a case of buyer beware. Hence my advice to sue the previous RK for loss of value (ie the cost of VED from date of purchase to expiry date on the voided disk).

The OP's g/f has not helped herself but not renewing, even when the voided disk's expiry date was reached - this makes it unlikely that the DVLA would apply any discretion that they might have if the car had been pulled during the indicated lifetime of the voided disk. There is no requirement for DVLA to issue a reminder/renewal notice and VED is the sole responsibility of the RK to. No renewal notice is no excuse.

[buzby]

Afraid we'll just has to let the the DVLA investigate and decide, as for the 'absolute' offence of no VED - the mitigation, of actually having the physical disc is proof positive that the purchaser had a right to use the vehicle as taxed up to its expiry date. The contiuted use, I agree is most unfortunate and does not help the situation. However, the fact that the DVLA chose to refund the tax without the disk was at their discretion, and it is on this point the DVLA become complicit in the fraud perpetrated on the purchaser. This isn't an issue where a cheque for VED bounces and the disk becomes void, this fact that the DVLA is prepared to refund for a disc that is not presented at the time of the refund request remains their problem. After all, the genuine loss of a VED disk could easily be covered by the vehicle's insurer and minimal or no cost.

The continued use after the expiry date of the original disc may well count against the new buyer, but it would be interesting to see if leeway is provided (as suggested by the Glasgow LVLO).

[Rob S]

Originally Posted by buzby

Afraid we'll just has to let the the DVLA investigate and decide, as for the 'absolute' offence of no VED - the mitigation, of actually having the physical disc is proof positive that the purchaser had a right to use the vehicle as taxed up to its expiry date.

How come? If DVLA had refunded the previous keeper and the VEL had been returned to them, then the only way this has been done is to make a copy of the VEL and display that in the vehicle. The purchaser might have thought that was sufficient proof to use the vehicle up to its expiry date, but not from a legal stand point.

Originally Posted by buzby

The contiuted use, I agree is most unfortunate and does not help the situation.

Agreed, failing to tax the vehicle after the expiry of the VEL that was displayed has not helped.

Originally Posted by buzby

However, the fact that the DVLA chose to refund the tax without the disk was at their discretion, and it is on this point the DVLA become complicit in the fraud perpetrated on the purchaser.

How can the DVLA be complicit in this fraud? If the previous keeper made a copy of the VEL before sending it back, got the refund and then displayed the fake then there is no way that DVLA are complicit.