DVLA - failure to relicense

[jampot]

In June 2007, I part exchanged my previous car for a new one, at a Land Rover main dealer. The car I was part exchanging carried my personalised registration plate at the time of part-exchange, and whilst I wasn't too bothered if I lost entitlement, the dealership were happy to assist with the retention... the result being, when I actually handed over the car, it was holding my personalised plate, and I got the retention document through in July, and the car was re-registered (as per usual) back to its original mark.

As far as I can recall, the 'i's were dotted, the 't's were crossed, and all relevant paperwork was completed - at least I received no further hassle from the dealership, and as far as I am aware, they traded on the car to a 3rd party, and it simply went back into circulation.

In September, I moved house, and I have updated the V5 document and my driving license for my new vehicle, but was surprised to receive, just before Xmas, some forwarded mail from my old address - namely a 'Failure to relicense' letter. Apparently the tax on my previous car ran out on 1/10/07.

Now, I must admit I haven't kept copies of any of the old V5 documentation, and only have 6 months later, a vague recollection of exactly what happened - but the situation is clear, inasmuch as the vehicle was effectively SOLD at the end of June, and I will have both paperwork and correspondence with the dealer to confirm that this is, indeed, the case.

In summary, what I believe happened is:

1) car p-exed end of June 2007
2) application to retain plate issued immediately
3) retention document produced 05/07/2007
4) (presumably) new V5 issued at the same time
5) my portion of new V5 completed and returned to DVLA
6) remainder of new V5 given to LR main dealer as soon as practical

So it appears that:

1) my portion of the new V5, sent to DVLA to tell them of the change in keeper, must have gone missing in the post

2) the LR main dealer has either had the same happen to them or, more likely, they've just traded the car on and with it being HPI clear and from a main dealer, have relied on the receiving dealer (or private purchaser, which is unlikely in this case) re-registering the car in their own name.

Either way, the DVLA hasn't received a change of owner from either party, and whilst this is somewhat strange (for a £20k part-exchange!) it is the only sequence of events which makes sense.

The DVLA paperwork says that I must provide a copy of the acknowledgement letter otherwise I will remain liable for the penalty.

The problem is, I don't have a copy of the acknowledgement, as it seems likely that the original paperwork didn't make it to them. I would have had no way of knowing if this is the case or not, and to be honest I didn't think I had to receive acknowledgement (or even care) since the papertrail external to the DVLA is very obvious.

I've completed their form with a statement basically outlining the sequence above. Obviously as a 'company' and not a private individual, who can just vanish, I should hope to be able to provide clarification from Land Rover as well, and indeed the Finance Company who would be able to confirm that the finance was settled at the same time... but where exactly will I stand with DVLA?

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by jampot

In September, I moved house, and I have updated the V5 document and my driving license for my new vehicle, but was surprised to receive, just before Xmas, some forwarded mail from my old address - namely a 'Failure to relicense' letter. Apparently the tax on my previous car ran out on 1/10/07.

Which VRM is quoted? Your cherished one or the original?

The DVLA paperwork says that I must provide a copy of the acknowledgement letter otherwise I will remain liable for the penalty.

That which they speak is absolute bollox. Read some of the other threads here. Particularly Danny's contribution as regards the law regrading post. There is no basis in law (Vehicle Excise and Registration Act) for the requirement for an acknowledgement letter. DVLA are simply wrong to state that you remain liable for the vehicle until such a letter is recieved - otherwise you would remain liable for parking tickets, etc. until the DVLA got off their collective a**ses and issued said letter.

[/quote]

[jampot]

Thanks PD.

The VRM quoted is the 'original', so they obviously properly processed the change of registration - but didn't act upon the subsequent (and immediate) change of keeper.

As I can easily prove that I part-exchanged the car well before 01/10/07, I would hope that common sense would suggest that I cannot be liable for a fine and backdated tax.

Furthermore, I cannot believe that the new owner hasn't applied for a V5 in their own name. The car was a late 2004 Audi S4, and although it was 3 years old during that October, it was still worth about £20k, not some £200 old banger which the new owner would probably prefer to keep hidden. It is over 6 months since the transaction took place... and I find that utterly remarkable.

[gwc1000]

Some cars, even as expensive as yours can sometimes float round the trade for much longer. Someone has it on their forecourt for a couple of months can't sell it sends it to auction a trader buys it and then punts it around the trade, he might put it on another trader's pitch sale or return,they can't sell it he has it back then tries another forecourt or sends it back to auction and so it goes on. I sent a p/ex to auction about five years ago, sold it, and for the next nine months or so that car appeared at just about every auction I visited around the country always selling to the trade.
DVLA won't be interested that you can prove when you sold it. The change of keeper slip is all that they will accept.

[Conniff]

Hey LOOK! a joke everyone:

I would hope that common sense would suggest that I cannot be liable for a fine and backdated tax.

Your talking DVLA jampot, there is no common sense in their office.

They are a typical government department with strict orders to make as much money as they can any which way then can.
The amount of claims that 'they didn't receive it' makes me wonder why the Royal Mail don't sue them for libal.

I don't think you have anything to worry about as the car was not yours and you have proof of that. They will probably hound you for a while though, someone has to pay for the Christmas party they just had, and they would like you to contribute.

I think you should send them the proof and tell them that if you receive another demand then you will take legal action for harassment.

[gwc1000]

As I posted before DVLA will not be interested that you can prove when you sold the car.
Taken from their website:

Continuous registration

Tell DVLA if you sell, transfer, scrap or export your vehicle, otherwise you’ll continue to be responsible for taxing it even though you no longer have it. Complete the appropriate section of your Registration Certificate and send to DVLA, Swansea SA99 1BA. You should receive an acknowledgement letter within four weeks, which you should keep as proof that DVLA records have been updated. Contact DVLA customer enquires if you don’t receive it.



I think the best approach is to try dannykiernan's letter.

[Conniff]

As I posted before DVLA will not be interested that you can prove when you sold the car.

Sorry but I can't see how they can ignore 'proof'. That's the same as a jury saying "yes we saw the video of him killing someone, but we aren't interested, so not guilty".
I don't think that will wash in any court.

If everyone started sending their documents by recorded delivery, somehow I think the DVLA would suddenly go broke as they must be ignoring or destroying received correspondence. Even the worse mail company in the world couldn't loose that many letters, and it's funny how the majority of lost mail seems to be to the DVLA.

[gwc1000]

Don't worry, I am on your side! I am only going by experience. I have a customer this happened to, and although I informed DVLA that she part-exed the vehicle to me on whatever date, they still continued to threaten Court action, saying that under the continuous registration rules she was liable. She caved in and paid up.
Whenever sending in a change of ownership notification, or sorn, it is in your interest to inform Swansea if you haven't had a confirmation in four weeks, otherwise you can bet they will claim they haven't received it.

Looking at this, it seems they are reluctant to give up:
http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/foi/foi5105.pdf

[Conniff]

Sorry if it looked that way gwc, there was no intention to suggest that.
Experience is the best form of knowledge.

[gwc1000]

Originally Posted by Conniff

Sorry if it looked that way gwc, there was no intention to suggest that.
Experience is the best form of knowledge.

No problem, I was being light hearted. My experience of DVLA is that they always come back with: "If you didn't receive a confirmation within four weeks why didn't you contact us, as is explained on the V5?"

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by gwc1000

My experience of DVLA is that they always come back with: "If you didn't receive a confirmation within four weeks why didn't you contact us, as is explained on the V5?"

Very true and totally unreasonable (as usual) by the DVLA.

"Because I no longer had the V5 to be able to read that..."

[gwc1000]

The problem is most people do send the change of keeper details to Swansea and they feel they have done (quite rightly) what is required of them. But, four weeks later they will not be thinking about a car that frankly, they are glad is out of their life, and they are not checking their post daily for a confirmation from DVLA. The issue has been forgotten. I feel the stance taken by DVLA as you say, pat is totally unreasonable, because the system relies upon the efficiency of the postal service, non delivery results in a fine.

[JonCris]

Why Oh! why do these agencies assume that they are the most important thing in our lives when clearly most of us have lives to lead which don't involve sitting by the letter box waiting for their letter to drop onto the mat - I mean some of us have families to rear & even jobs to go to where we try to earn enough to keep the wolf form the door - My point is that in this world we have many important things which distract us so it's hardly surprising that waiting for their letter isn't a high priority & can easily be forgotten.

Also bearing in mind we are talking about the DVLA it's a bit of a joke to demand info from us - most of which they will probably lose or give to organised crooks

[andbarbred]

Until a similar thing happened to me I assumed that people who blamed the royal mail or goverment agency for a 'lost in post' error were simply trying to get out of a pickle that they had got themselves into.
NOT NOW!!
I sent a V5 to DVLA, having disposed of a scrapper to a reputable salvage company. I have a transfer note from the salvage company which details the date(and even the time!) that the car was collected.
With me not being a frequent seller of cars I remember the truck driver stamping the V5 form with his company stamp and signing it. I remember posting the form that same day to DVLA.
I admit that i didn't hear from DVLA, but hey, the car had gone, the wife was happy that the car had gone and my life had moved on.
6 months later I got a fine for not renewing the SORN.
I dug out the receipt from the salvage company and filled in the new dvla form and sent a copy of the receipt expecting that to be enough to resolve the matter.
not so, my fine/penalty increased to £80.00 as a result of me taking time to put forward my defence.
I still owe the money, but to be honest I don't think i am going to pay it, but what will their next step be?

[jampot]

Originally Posted by gwc1000

As I posted before DVLA will not be interested that you can prove when you sold the car.
Taken from their website:

Continuous registration

Tell DVLA if you sell, transfer, scrap or export your vehicle, otherwise you’ll continue to be responsible for taxing it even though you no longer have it. Complete the appropriate section of your Registration Certificate and send to DVLA, Swansea SA99 1BA. You should receive an acknowledgement letter within four weeks, which you should keep as proof that DVLA records have been updated. Contact DVLA customer enquires if you don’t receive it.



I think the best approach is to try dannykiernan's letter.

Does someone have a link to this letter? Happy to write my own out (and will enjoy doing so) but useful to have something well written to refer to

[danny_kiernan]

Hi Jampot,

Heres the link

Template letter for SORN fines

Good luck too

Danny