DCA Bullying (and lying?)

[HighlandCoo]

I wish I'd discovered this forum last week. I don't know if anyone could have helped me -- now it's probably too late to do anything but grumble.

In June/July 2006, I was behind with my council tax payments. Because I'm self employed and hadn't yet been paid in 06, I missed most of the earlier payments due. The council then demanded the whole year's council tax in advance, obtained a summary warrant from the Sheriff Officers, and gave the "debt" to BCW (I put "debt" in quotes because this is a demand for payment for council services I had not yet received).

Despite my efforts to explain my situation, my council tax bill suddenly went from £1100 to £1210. I paid off the £1100 when I could afford it, but I disputed the extra £110 -- at first because I didn't know why they'd increased my bill (I still had the original tax bill, why should I pay more?)

Each time I phoned,they agreed that I had paid off my council tax. But I'd still get demands for "£110 council tax arrears". It turned out this was the Sheriff Officer's fee for the summary warrant, i.e. 10% of the outstanding amount.

The council refused to send me an updated council tax bill with the new amount, and BCW sent me increasingly threatening letters. I phoned BCW to ask how I was supposed to know a warrant had been granted and how a Sherrif Officers fee is council tax, and was told by a very rude and aggressive woman that BCW can call the debt anything they like.

They could send me a demand for Tom Jones's chiropractor's bill, and I would have to pay it, if I had any sort of debt. They could call the Sheriff Officer's fee "unpaid windfarm tax", and I'd have to pay it. They refused to tell me the name of the Sheriff Officers, so I can't check that a summary warrant was granted.

Does that seem right?

I eventually paid the extra "council tax", when they threatened to arrest money in my bank account and told me it would damage my credit rating, but I'm bloody annoyed at them.

Sorry for grumbling, but it doesn't seem fair that they can demand your whole year's council tax up front, and call it a debt, and then increase that debt to cover the cost of reclaiming it. And BCW annoyed me by being so hostile on the phone and making me feel like an idiot because I couldn't understand how a Sheriff Officer's fee is council tax.

If anyone can think of some way to get back at them for being so rude and demeaning (do I have grounds to complain to the OFT?), I'd be very happy to hear from you.

[gizmo111]

Sorry for grumbling, but it doesn't seem fair that they can demand your whole year's council tax up front, and call it a debt, and then increase that debt to cover the cost of reclaiming it. And BCW annoyed me by being so hostile on the phone and making me feel like an idiot because I couldn't understand how a Sheriff Officer's fee is council tax.

You were not paying up front - you didn't pay the instalments so they called in the whole years CT. They are quite within their rights to claim their costs from you. Council Tax debts get into court very quick.

[HighlandCoo]

Originally Posted by gizmo111

You were not paying up front - you didn't pay the instalments so they called in the whole years CT. They are quite within their rights to claim their costs from you. Council Tax debts get into court very quick.

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sure I understand, though. I was asked in 07/06 to pay the CT due from 01/04/2006 to 31/03/07. How is that not up front? Since I hadn't yet received the services (refuse collection etc) from 07/06 to 03/07.

Isn't that like saying "if you paid your income tax for the upcoming year in one payment at the start of the year, then it's not up front."?

[dx100uk]

oh so until they empty your bin, your not gonig to pay
then if they dont do it properly, to your satisfaction, you still won't pay

meet your type everyday...pay your dues like the rest of us.

wouldn't like to be a council worker employed on your scheme of life, when i have emptied your bin, to your satisfaction, then you might pay, bit it a week or two late, cause its 'your' money, then once the council have got the money, i might actually get paid. nice on my family too. don't think so.

dx100uk

[gizmo111]

Originally Posted by HighlandCoo

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm not sure I understand, though. I was asked in 07/06 to pay the CT due from 01/04/2006 to 31/03/07. How is that not up front? Since I hadn't yet received the services (refuse collection etc) from 07/06 to 03/07.

Isn't that like saying "if you paid your income tax for the upcoming year in one payment at the start of the year, then it's not up front."?

if you hadn't missed the instalment then you could have continued paying monthly - because you missed a payment the yare entitled to claim their whole year's tax. Afraid this is how CT works.

[HighlandCoo]

Originally Posted by dx100uk

oh so until they empty your bin, your not gonig to pay
then if they dont do it properly, to your satisfaction, you still won't pay

meet your type everyday...pay your dues like the rest of us.

wouldn't like to be a council worker employed on your scheme of life, when i have emptied your bin, to your satisfaction, then you might pay, bit it a week or two late, cause its 'your' money, then once the council have got the money, i might actually get paid. nice on my family too. don't think so.

dx100uk

I didn't say that at all, dx. Where did I say that? I said I hadn't earned any money in 2006 until July, and explained to the council that I would pay when I had it. It wasn't like I was claiming benefits.

They responded by demanding the whole year's payment in one lump sum, which they knew I couldn't pay. Then the DCA started on me like an attack dog.

I dont think I'm being unreasonable. Most bosses don't pay you your salary in advance, before you do the work for that month, although presumably yours does? I wouldn't like to manage a small business in your scheme of life, when everyone gets paid in advance.

[HighlandCoo]

Originally Posted by gizmo111

if you hadn't missed the instalment then you could have continued paying monthly - because you missed a payment the yare entitled to claim their whole year's tax. Afraid this is how CT works.

Yep. I realise that now. I'll be more careful in future. I didn't realise how quick they'd be to dump it on me. I probably should have borrowed until my business could pay off.

I am still annoyed at the DCA though, who I feel were overly aggressive.

[gizmo111]

I am still annoyed at the DCA though, who I feel were overly aggressive.

Yet to find one who isn't seems to be in their job description - I would write a letter to the council saying how aggressive they were, so they know what sort of people they are employing.

[Pat-Uk]

My understanding of Council tax, is that it is due for payment in April, and they allow you to pay it in arreas over 10 months, this is how they get away with demanding the amount in full.

As much as I hate the idea of giving the council vast sums every month, I suppose they have to get their wages from somewhere, I dont agree with the amount they charge either, and I also think that not paying should be de criminalised, as being unable to pay should be a defence. whereas as it stands now even if you really dont have the funds you still have to pay or you go to prison.

[gizmo111]

I don't agree withthe whole system - but people on low income can apply for council tax benefit.

[HighlandCoo]

Originally Posted by Pat-Uk

My understanding of Council tax, is that it is due for payment in April, and they allow you to pay it in arreas over 10 months, this is how they get away with demanding the amount in full.

As much as I hate the idea of giving the council vast sums every month, I suppose they have to get their wages from somewhere, I dont agree with the amount they charge either, and I also think that not paying should be de criminalised, as being unable to pay should be a defence. whereas as it stands now even if you really dont have the funds you still have to pay or you go to prison.

Ah, that makes sense to me now. I didn't know it worked that way. I have no objection to paying CT, I just didn't have the funds when they asked for them. It was either the CT or the mortgage, and I opted to keep a roof over my head.

I agree with you about decriminalisation. It shouldn't be acceptable to put people in prison for not earning enough. A friend of mine earns £35 a week (he will not claim benefits out of principle), which does not even cover his CT. Could he end up in prison because of this?

He told me that he'll opt for voluntary bankruptcy. Does anyone know if that would clear his CT debt?

[stevesj]

Council Tax is due and payable under their terms when the bill goes out. It is payable upon demand in one payment in April - BUT, because everyone doesn't usually have the ready cash to pay it, the local councils / government agreed that it cold be paid in ten monthly instalments (how kind), so in effect you could have February and March as Council Tax free (for instalments that is). It is also discretionary for each council to allow 12 monthly payments as a last resort, to spread the cost (it reduces the risk of default, and subsequent cost for DCA collection) Ahhhh, isn't that nice? - I found this out by talking to a colleague in Council Tax (no i don't work for them), another but is they can also negotiate a payment plan should something go wrong financially with your personal circs - they can, however as others have stated, bring you to court and place you in jail for not paying or refusing to pay, usually the latter. (feel better now it's off me chest)

Hope this helps

[Pat-Uk]

The benifit system work OK if your entitled to it, but eligability does not take into account all outgoings,

If you earn £900 per month, your rent/Mortgage is £500, other bills and debts £400, not including CTax the you will not get any benefit towards your £140 + Ctax bill, even though you might need it, they only take into consideration certain outgoings when deciding your benefit, and if you left over income after rent is over a certain amount they decide you can afford it, they DO NOT take into consideration any other required outgoings.

This is where I feel it is an unfair system. I think that other outgoings should be taken into account when deciding abillity to pay.

[tevion]

once a council tax bill is paid thats the end of it. if you wanted a statement of your account i dont see how council can refuse, you should have gone down there and kicked up a fuss. i wouldnt have paid the extra charges no matter what some prat said on the end of a phone. people who sound off on the end of a phone do it because they can and havent got the bottle to do it to your face. dont ever let some retard shouting down the phone worry you. they cannot collect charges on a bill that doesnt exist and is paid in full.