Had home re-posessed 10-11 years ago and still paying debt collectors

[Loopylou40]

Hi
I have posted this problem elsewhere, but this seems a good place to post it also.
My husband and I purchased a property jointly and had it re-posessed over 8 years later. It was a commercial property, although we bought it on a semi-commercial basis, but never received Miras and were sold an endownment policy on a commercial property, because hubby could not get a repayment mortgage. The property was a shop with flat above and my husbands business took a turn for the worse and we could no longer afford the repayments. The property was left not lived in for some time, because we were living and working elsewhere, to try and continue paying the mortgage.
When the property was re-posessed, we had actually paid more than the initial amount we borrowed and the property was then sold at a much lower figure than the valued firgure. This left us with a substantial debt, from the interest that had been added to our initial mortgage and we had cashed in the endowment when things got tough and continued to pay the interest.
My husband was made bancrupt in 2000 and the debt collection agency said the debt was now entirely my responsibility. I have been paying £20 per month for over 10 years now and every now and again, the debt collectors (Henderson Booth and Snell) who have purchased the debt, offer me the opportunity to pay a lump sum, usually of about £2500, but I can't afford this.
I was just wondering if anyone had found themselves in a similar position and just how long I should expect to carry on paying for this debt.

Many thanks
Lou

[Loopylou40]

Actually - have to correct something:

I am not sure HBS have purchased the debt, because they still put Chelsea Building Society down as their client on letters.

Lou xxx

[stan5131]

Loopy, please look at my thread titled Bradford and Bingley Old Mortgage. Tideturner also has a good thread going on the same subject.

You need to send CCA request to the debt collection agency and Subject Access Request to the building society.

Have a read of the above threads and come back to me.

[stan5131]

Bradford & Bingley Old Mortgage ( 1 2 3 4 5)

[stan5131]

Mortgage, CreditAgricole ,BirminghamMidshires, Halifa x, HBOS, CurtisSolicitors ( 1 2 3)

[Loopylou40]

Hi Stan5131
I have had a long look through your thread and a quick look at Tideturner's. Very interesting but extremely complicated - sorry but I do not have a great head for finance - science yes - anything to do with money - no. lol.
It is late, so I need to look at this again tomorrow, when I have slept.
From what I have read, the first thing I need to do is send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to the building society Chelsea - although have not had dealings with them for years and so unsure of where to send it.
I am not too sure what the CCA is that you refer to and say I should send to the DCA.

Thanks again for your help - it is so appreciated. If I can reduce my expenditure at the moment, it would really benefit us. I am a student again, studying Adult Nursing and my husband has a chronic neurological condition, which prevents him from now working.
Times are hard and I am doing my best to keep our heads above water, without banks and building societies making illegal charges.
It seems to me the people that are charged the most, are those that can least afford it - why is that?
Sorry - having a bit of a feel sorry formyslef moment - I have snapped out of it now. lol

Lou xxx

[KHMcBey]

Lou - the CCA is the consumer credit agreement, a document which debt collection agencies have to produce in order to prove that they own the debt and are allowed to collect it. If the don't provide the CCA, they can't technically claim the debt and it's unenforcable through the courts. Most DCAs cannot produce the document and therefor you shouldn't have to pay them. There is a thread on this board here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ver-scott.html
that details the steps he took to get the debt written off. I'm really bad with money, too, but this was quite straightforward and informative! Also, I loved his letters. I plan to use them for my DCAs if it comes to that

[stan5131]

Lou, dont worry, we will help you every step of the way. Just keep posting the new information and we will tell you the next step.

[stan5131]

Send this to debt collection agency. This is the CCA request letter.


DEAR SIR /MADAM,

RE:..REFERENCE NUMBER..

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. I require you to the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee.

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.
4. Confirmation as to whether you have purchased this debt, including amount and date purchased, or whether you are merely acting on behalf of your client.
5. A detailed schedule of any charges that you have levied on this account.

I understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days,

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully

[Loopylou40]

Wow Stan - thanks

I will get this in the post a.s.a.p.
thanks again - such a great help.
I will stay in touch.

Lou xxx

[Loopylou40]

Hi I have still not sent letter. I want to just make sure I am sending the correct letter to all concerned. I have received a letter from the company I have been paying this monthly amount to for many years, because I have stopped the monthly payments. The letter says this Dear Mrs *** Our client: Chelsea Building Society Initial Balance: £10156.15 Account No: *** Property: *** According to our records, as at the close of business today, your agreed monthly repayment towards the outstanding balance specified above, is now overdue. However, we feel sure that this must be an oversight on your part.Your payment was due on 10th February 2007.We now therefore require a payment of £***, without delay, in order to bring your agreed repayments in respect of your account up to date. Please be advised that in the event that agreed repayments are not maintained our client reserves the right to revert to the full outstanding balance and may consider legal action against you for the recovery of that loss. Such action may also involve additional costs and interest.If you are in a position to raise a lump sum payment and would like to establish what savings would be made against this debt, please contact *** at this office on ***. Yours sincerely I am unsure if this company - Henderson Booth and Snell are debt collectors who have bought off the debt or working for the original lender - Chelsea B/S. The inital figure they said I owed due to the sale of the property at a very low figure after it was re-posessed, does not appear to have gone down at all, since I started making payments. They are still saying I owe the same amount of money.I am therefore a little confused about which letter I should send them.Can anyone help? CheersLou xxx

[PriorityOne]

Hi Loupylou,

You need to send a CCA request off as soon as possible !! As you have stopped making payments, the DCA could take legal action against you before they receive your request. By receiving your request, you are placing the account in dispute... and as such, the debt cannot be enforced unless they produce the Agreeement. Just take things slowly and be patient.

Once the CCA request has been sent, the onus is then on the DCA to produce this document as proof of their legal right to collect from you. If they have not produced it within 12 working days from (recorded delivery) receipt, then you are within your rights to withhold further payments until it can be produced and re-enforced in court. One month later, they will have also committed a criminal offence.... so it is vital that you get this request off to them as soon as you can.

[In The Know]

Originally Posted by Loopylou40

Hi
I have posted this problem elsewhere, but this seems a good place to post it also.
My husband and I purchased a property jointly and had it re-posessed over 8 years later. It was a commercial property, although we bought it on a semi-commercial basis, but never received Miras and were sold an endownment policy on a commercial property, because hubby could not get a repayment mortgage. The property was a shop with flat above and my husbands business took a turn for the worse and we could no longer afford the repayments. The property was left not lived in for some time, because we were living and working elsewhere, to try and continue paying the mortgage.
When the property was re-posessed, we had actually paid more than the initial amount we borrowed and the property was then sold at a much lower figure than the valued firgure. This left us with a substantial debt, from the interest that had been added to our initial mortgage and we had cashed in the endowment when things got tough and continued to pay the interest.
My husband was made bancrupt in 2000 and the debt collection agency said the debt was now entirely my responsibility. I have been paying £20 per month for over 10 years now and every now and again, the debt collectors (Henderson Booth and Snell) who have purchased the debt, offer me the opportunity to pay a lump sum, usually of about £2500, but I can't afford this.
I was just wondering if anyone had found themselves in a similar position and just how long I should expect to carry on paying for this debt.

Many thanks
Lou

The problem with mortgage debt is that regardless of your husband being a bankrupt, he would still be jointly responsible for the mortgage because it was a secured debt. Bankruptcy wipes out your unsecured debt and whilst alot of finance companies accept that if you can't pay your unsecured, it's not likley that you can pay your secured, they still have a right to pursue the bankrupt.
Even if you had not been contacted for up to 12 years, a previous mortgage lender could still pursue you for the loss incurred. A mortgage is a contract under seal and whilst the principle sum is recoverable for up to 12 years after it becomes due, the interest that has accrued would only be recoverable for 6 years. ( Unless you are lucky enough to live in Scotland where the 5 year rule covers everything). So, for instance, if you had not been contacted for 7 years, you would still owe the principle sum, but no interest which it had accrued, that would be statute barred.
The fact that you are paying has tied you in to repaymnets until the debt is repaid, or, you do manage to obtain a loan to settle what is on offer. The only real options you have is to either haggle on the settle figure and do your best to raise it, or, if your finanacil situation warrants it, look at an IVA, which would only tie you in for another 5 years and the balance of all of your debts would then be written off.
Sorry, cant be of any any further help, but good luck anyway.

[PriorityOne]

Originally Posted by In The Know

Even if you had not been contacted for up to 12 years, a previous mortgage lender could still pursue you for the loss incurred.

The fact that you are paying has tied you in to repaymnets until the debt is repaid, or, you do manage to obtain a loan to settle what is on offer. The only real options you have is to either haggle on the settle figure and do your best to raise it, or, if your finanacil situation warrants it, look at an IVA, which would only tie you in for another 5 years and the balance of all of your debts would then be written off.

I am sure that I have read recent legislation that has reduced the timespan for chasing mortgage debts to 6 years now...

Also, although the amount outstanding may be quite large, mortgage companies are willing to consider greatly reduced full and final settlement figures and write the rest of the debt off.... when an account has remained outstanding for so long. I assume this is because much of it has been re-claimed already in the MIG (Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee). I speak from personal experience on this.... some years ago, I had the vast majority of a repossession debt written off for less than 5% of the amount outstanding :o !!

If the DCA is collecting this debt on behalf of the original creditor, then the debt will be passed back to them. OP can then negotiate for a settlement figure wwith them... and not the DCA. However, the fact that the DCA has already expressed interest in a settlement figure suggests that they may have bought the debt. In which case, if they cannot provide some kind of legal ownership after all these years... I am inclined to think that OP might be in the clear.

[In The Know]

It is interesting that you mention MIG'S, they were very lucrative for debt collectors a few years back, but poor press put an end to that. Not even solicitor's understood that due to the right of subrocated claims, the mortgage lender, or agency, which acted on behalf of the insurers, were well within their rights and the law, to recover back from the the borrower, any amount that had been paid by the the insurers to the lender, after a shortfall had occured.
However, because so many borrowers complained that they had undertaken the MIG because they thought it was in place to cover the borrower and not the lender (poor advice by lenders) the insurance companies decided to cut their losses due to bad press and if any type of MIG is now included in a mortgage, rather than the borrower paying the premium, the lender does instead.
The point regarding the 12 year rule has always been somewhat vague and whilst the council of mortgage lenders suggest to their members that 6 years would be more realistic, this is not in fact law and it is the decision of the mortgage lender as to which route is taken and because their have been many cases where some judgments have resulted 6 yrs and others 12 years, no precedent has actually been set and subsequently most lenders will go for the 12 year ruling. I accept however that it is always worth fighting if you feel that you have a case for 6 years.
With regards to the settlement scenario, most creditors will allow the DCA to negotiate the same type of deal that they would themselves, but it is the DCA themselves that up the ante (for obvious reasons) the DCA'S are all given differing write off figures for different levels of debt. In my own experience it is also the case that the low settlement offers to which you mention would be more available form the lender, is probably not always correct, as the lender in many cases would have already offered what may have seemed a really low settlement to the borrowewr at some point in the past, but the borrower had been unable to comply, so, bridges burnt in many cases.
Hope this clarifies the points raised.