A DCA letter - bolt from the blue

[kateandpete]

We've just had a letter drop on our doormat from:

Debt Managers Ltd.
PO Box 168
4 Jamaica Street
Edinburgh EH3 6UP

It reads...

Your account with CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL from year 2001 which was previously with another agency, has now been referred to our office for collection. We propose offering a free collection service, and our representative has been instructed to call on you to uplift your payments. If you prefer to pay directly to our office, you can do so, but you must make your first payment immediately using the attached giro slip, or any of the methods on the reverse of this letter.
AMOUNT £697.53

This is a total surprise.
As far as we are aware, we do not owe anything to the City of Edinburgh Council and have never been contacted before. We now live in Cheshire.

We lived in Edinburgh from October 1995 to July 2000 - we were both students and therefore the property where we lived was exempt from council tax for the duration of our tenancy. So we can't see how we would owe them anything.

About a year ago we spent a lot of time on this site claiming back charges (£4000) and cleaning our credit records. We're now totally on the straight and narrow and have absolutely no desire to get back into the legal shenanigans. We're aware that DCA's are tricky to deal with and want to ask people's advice on how to go about sorting this.

The other half wants to phone them up, but I don't want to do this as I feel a paper trail is essential. Do we contact the DCA or Edinburgh Council direct?

How can we permanently impress on the council that we don't owe them anything?

How can we ensure that we never hear from the DCA again?

[Conniff]

It is essential that you do all corresponding by written communication.

[creditcardmug]

Since this is a scottish issue, i think you are best waiting for rory on this one or try to pm him

[ODC]

Send the DCA this

Dear Sir/Madam

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

I/we look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

AND

I refer to your recent correspondence.

I note it is your intention to arrange a “doorstep collector” to call with me. Please be advised that under OFT rules, such persons can only visit me at my home if they make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you or anyone you may appoint.

There is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and civil action will be taken.

[kateandpete]

Thanks all three of you!

Conniff - yes, I thought so!

creditcardmug - I'll send him a PM.


ODC- Excellent!
Just the sort of thing i'm looking for. Should I contact the Council separately? What i'd really like is for the council to acknowledge that i don't owe them anything.

I'm not keen on these DCA people - can I also put my arsey hat on and put "Letter before action" at the top and detail the charges i'll be pursuing them for should I need to instigate action against tham. Like my reasonable hourly rate for letter writing and also compensation for harassment etc. etc.? Or do you think that's laying it on a bit thick for the moment?

[rory32]

Your account with CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL from year 2001

We lived in Edinburgh from October 1995 to July 2000

So you didn't live their in 2001 (or is this a bill for year 2000/2001?). Were you on the electoral register in 2001 elsewhere or pay counciul tax elsewhere? I would certainly deal with the council directly rather than the DCA.

[kateandpete]

Ta for response, rory32

We didn't live there in 2001. As soon as we graduated we left (unfortunately) for England. I continued my studies and my OH started work - and we paid council tax to the City of Durham Council from September (i think) 2000 . It's plausible that the financial year of whatever bill this is for is 2000/2001, but we weren't liable for council tax at all at the time. It's also plausible that we were still on the electoral roll in Edinburgh (we voted in first Scottish Parliamentary elections in 1999). We registered in Durham for the next local elections, but i can't remember when they were.

I've got no bones with Edinburgh Council - they had discretionary power to help us out with our rent over two summers. We were utterly skint students with a young child and unpaid work experience to do - otherwise we'd have failed our degrees. They decided to help us and we are grateful, so if we genuinely owe them money we'll pay up.

I don't feel the same about DCA's. Lowest of the low.

[rory32]

If the council were helping you out then you had obviously informed them that you were students and as such were exempt from council tax while you were students.

As previously stated I would just deal with Edinburgh council directly on this. It's probably an error of some sort. Contact details for council tax are here

[kateandpete]

OK, the plot thickens.

I phoned the City of Edinburgh council tax department.
It is for council tax.

They believe our degree courses finished in March 2000. Our landlord has stated that our tenancy officially ended on 22nd September 2000. They are saying we are liable for council tax between these two dates. They have asked us to prove the end dates of our courses.

I phoned Edinburgh University. Our courses officially finished on the 24th June 2000. They are sending confirmation in writing.

We have proof (bank statements) that the last rent cheque in Edinburgh was paid out on 19th June 2000 (June rent). We verbally agreed with our landlord that he take our deposit as July rent. Our lease ran early August to early August. So we cannot be liable for Council Tax for August and September 2000.

I have phoned Durham City council. On their records we started living there on 27th July 2000. We were in receipt of some council tax benefit that must have transferred from Edinburgh. I've asked them to confirm all this in writing.

I have phoned the jobcentre - who told me to write. I have asked in writing for exact dates of JSA claims, which office we reported to and any Council Tax benefit claims.

Our situation at the time:
We finished our exams in June 2000. We both then signed on for JSA. We left at the end of July and took up a new tenancy in Durham. We transferred our JSA claims from Edinburgh to Durham. My wife started work in August 2000 and we both signed off JSA. I commenced my PhD course at the beginning of October 2000.

I have sent the "Prove it" letter to the DCA.

[Darren]

Would it not be statute barred or does that not apply to council tax

[rory32]

Whilst the limitation act doesn't apply on council tax as it is a crown debt, it has it's own limitation period under reg 34(3) of the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (SI 613/1992). The Local Authority may not apply for a Liability Order after "the period of six years beginning with the day on which it becomes due". This was clarified furthermore by Regentford v Thanet District Council (2004) which stated that the limitation period runs from the date that a demand for payment is first served on the c.tax payer. The usual acknowledgement/part-payment rules apply.

[rory32]

Obviously in Scotland that would be the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) (Scotland) Regulations 1992 (SI 1992/1332).

In Scotland they would have 20 years to recover council tax.and runs from the date of the final demand or when the debt was last acknowledged by you or someone acting on your behalf.

[kateandpete]

OK so it's not statute barred.

So i need to prove we aren't liable.

They say we're liable from March - September 2000.

Well, up to 24th June is easy. We have proof we were students and thus exempt.
Then it gets tricky. Our landlord says we left on 22nd September. This is not true, as we left on 31st July. But we have no proof other than the fact we have a lease in Durham starting 27th July, confirmed by Durham Council. I am guessing that 22nd September is when the next people moved into our old flat, thereby neatly arranging that the landlord be not responsible for any Council Tax while it was empty in August and September. Maybe cessation of services would be proof enough? Gas and electricity?

Supposing enough proof is found. We are then left with the period 25th June - 31st July 2000 where we would be liable. But we were both unemployed and claiming JSA and Housing benefit (we have bank statements to prove this). We had never paid Council Tax in our lives. Had we realised we had become potentially liable for it for that one month, we would have been eligible for it to be covered by Council Tax benefit. We were in receipt of Council Tax benefit in Durham, surely we would have just transferred this claim from Edinburgh? Hopefully the jobcentre will come up with some proof of this.

What a mess.
I guess i'll just have to wait for responses from the people i've contacted. In the meanwhile, what do you all think the DCA is likely to do?

[Castlebest]

DCA's being DCA's they will try to pressure you into paying.

I think as soon as you are reasonably sure of your ground (even do it now) you should write to the City of Edinburgh council and confirm your dispute, at the same time write to the DCA confirming the debt is in dispute.

pete

[kateandpete]

Good idea - Done!

I just confirmed in writing that the account is in dispute and reminded them of the information the promised to provide on the phone.

I also took the opportunity to ask them to provide me with all details they have pertaining to ourselves and the address at the time. I also asked them to provide a detailed breakdown of how they arrived at the figure they allege we owe.