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Old 27th April 2008, 21:48   #1 (permalink)
stevieb52
Basic Account Customer
Default RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Hi folks

I have been made aware of a situation involving close family members who have been dealing with a situation virtually identical to Mariner's, involving the RBS and Irwin Mitchell:

Royal bank of Scotland claim.

I had planned to follow the same advice given to Mariner but there are a couple of differences in this case, firstly I think that a default notice may have been served and also things have moved on a stage...

The family member has been served a "Notice of Allocation to the Fast Track". With a Judge assigned to the case along with a timeframe for a trial, it talks about Pre Trial Checklists, although it does also state that "Any party affected by the terms of this order may apply to have it set aside or varied."

So am I correct in presuming that we can still apply to have it set aside on the grounds that they have not/cannot supply the signed original agreement? A CCA request was sent towards the end of last year.

I am looking for any advice that will confirm if this is the right approach, obviously I need to get this spot on so any advice would be greatly appreciated by all of us!

Thanks
StevieB52

Last edited by stevieb52; 19th May 2008 at 20:27. Reason: Edited to replace incorrect link
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Old 27th April 2008, 23:09   #2 (permalink)
vselym
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vselym Novitiate
Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Hi StevieB52

Although im no expert, as far as im aware, providing they are in default of the cca request, it provides a complete defence against enforcement.

To apply for a set aside you need form N244 from your local court, and i think id be right in saying you also would want to challenge the fast track element of the claim

Im sure if im wrong someone else will redirect you

regards

vselym
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Old 28th April 2008, 00:10   #3 (permalink)
Mariner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Hello Stevie,

Just seen your posts, I will make a point of posting tomorrow after the hearing - hopefully mid afternoon. Obviously I would like it to go our way but if not it won't be a disaster. I'll just have to come up with Plan B. If I learn anything that may be useful to you I will post it.

By the way, within a few hours of coming on this site I started to feel positive about the issue - the (excellent) advice on here can be a bit overwhelming at first, you've got to re-read some posts several times to make sure it sinks in and you understand. I found it quite helpful to have a notepad to hand and make notes about what things meant (eg. Subject Access Request, CPR 18 etc.) so that I would'nt have to keep looking things up. Although that could be my age.

Rambling on again - they say everybody has a novel in them - I think mine is coming out on here.

Regards

Mariner
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Old 28th April 2008, 01:33   #4 (permalink)
elizabeth1
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Lots of these companies (Banks, CC Companies, Loan Companies, DCA's) are so eager to get people through court etc.. they "forget" to follow the correct procedures with their claims - there is a tendancy to hop, skip and jump over certain elements - this will be their downfall cause it's where you'l have strengths in your defence

Maybe this will help - were the correct procedures taken by the company involved prior to taking court actions ??

Regulations and rules are there for these companies to follow too - seems many of these companies think they don't have to adhere to such rules and regulations doesn't it?



http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-181.html#post610967



PRE-ACTION BEHAVIOUR IN OTHER CASES

4.1 In cases not covered by any approved protocol, the court will expect the parties, in accordance with the overriding objective and the matters referred to in CPR 1.1(2)(a), (b) and (c), to act reasonably in exchanging information and documents relevant to the claim and generally in trying to avoid the necessity for the start of proceedings.

4.2 Parties to a potential dispute should follow a reasonable procedure, suitable to their particular circumstances, which is intended to avoid litigation. The procedure should not be regarded as a prelude to inevitable litigation. It should normally include –
(a)the claimant writing to give details of the claim;
(b)the defendant acknowledging the claim letter promptly;
(c)the defendant giving within a reasonable time a detailed written response; and
(d)the parties conducting genuine and reasonable negotiations with a view to settling the claim economically and without court proceedings.

4.3 The claimant's letter should –
(a)give sufficient concise details to enable the recipient to understand and investigate the claim without extensive further information;
(b)enclose copies of the essential documents which the claimant relies on;
(c)ask for a prompt acknowledgement of the letter, followed by a full written response within a reasonable stated period;

(For many claims, a normal reasonable period for a full response may be one month.)
(d)state whether court proceedings will be issued if the full response is not received within the stated period;
(e)identify and ask for copies of any essential documents, not in his possession, which the claimant wishes to see;
(f)state (if this is so) that the claimant wishes to enter into mediation or another alternative method of dispute resolution; and
(g)draw attention to the court's powers to impose sanctions for failure to comply with this practice direction and, if the recipient is likely to be unrepresented, enclose a copy of this practice direction.

4.4 The defendant should acknowledge the claimant's letter in writing within 21 days of receiving it. The acknowledgement should state when the defendant will give a full written response. If the time for this is longer than the period stated by the claimant, the defendant should give reasons why a longer period is needed.

4.5 The defendant's full written response should as appropriate –
(a)accept the claim in whole or in part and make proposals for settlement; or
(b)state that the claim is not accepted.

If the claim is accepted in part only, the response should make clear which part is accepted and which part is not accepted.

4.6 If the defendant does not accept the claim or part of it, the response should –
(a)give detailed reasons why the claim is not accepted, identifying which of the claimant's contentions are accepted and which are in dispute;
(b)enclose copies of the essential documents which the defendant relies on;
(c)enclose copies of documents asked for by the claimant, or explain why they are not enclosed;
(d)identify and ask for copies of any further essential documents, not in his possession, which the defendant wishes to see; and

(The claimant should provide these within a reasonably short time or explain in writing why he is not doing so.)
(e)state whether the defendant is prepared to enter into mediation or another alternative method of dispute resolution.

4.7 The parties should consider whether some form of alternative dispute resolution procedure would be more suitable than litigation, and if so, endeavour to agree which form to adopt. Both the Claimant and Defendant may be required by the Court to provide evidence that alternative means of resolving their dispute were considered. The Courts take the view that litigation should be a last resort, and that claims should not be issued prematurely when a settlement is still actively being explored. Parties are warned that if this paragraph is not followed then the court must have regard to such conduct when determining costs;

It is not practicable in this Practice Direction to address in detail how the parties might decide which method to adopt to resolve their particular dispute. However, summarised below are some of the options for resolving disputes without litigation:

Discussion and negotiation.
Early neutral evaluation by an independent third party (for example, a lawyer experienced in that field or an individual experienced in the subject matter of the claim).
Mediation – a form of facilitated negotiation assisted by an independent neutral party.

The Legal Services Commission has published a booklet on ‘Alternatives to Court’, CLS Direct Information Leaflet 23 (www.clsdirect.org.uk/legalhelp/leaflet23.jsp), which lists a number of organisations that provide alternative dispute resolution services.

It is expressly recognised that no party can or should be forced to mediate or enter into any form of ADR.

4.8 Documents disclosed by either party in accordance with this practice direction may not be used for any purpose other than resolving the dispute, unless the other party agrees.

4.9 The resolution of some claims, but by no means all, may need help from an expert. If an expert is needed, the parties should wherever possible and to save expense engage an agreed expert.

4.10 Parties should be aware that, if the matter proceeds to litigation, the court may not allow the use of an expert's report, and that the cost of it is not always recoverable.
__________________
My CCA skeleton argument to use in court -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...formation.html

Useful Letters (CCA request is letter N)
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...templates.html

CAG A-Z list of useful places in CAG -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...hat-youre.html

Introduction to Consumer Litigation -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...er-credit.html
CABOT THREADS -
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-threads.html

ALWAYS SEEK A PROFESSIONAL OPINION FROM QUALIFIED ADVISORS - any advice offered is from my own experience and knowledge - I am NOT qualified.
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Old 28th April 2008, 01:51   #5 (permalink)
TideTurner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Are these part of the Civil Procedure Rules? Sorry for being lazy
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Old 28th April 2008, 01:57   #6 (permalink)
elizabeth1
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Tide YES they are from here

PRACTICE DIRECTION – PROTOCOLS -
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:00   #7 (permalink)
TideTurner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Cheers Lizzy!!
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:08   #8 (permalink)
elizabeth1
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

It's amazing how much these companies mess up isn't it?

Seems they forget there are procedures to follow ?
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:18   #9 (permalink)
TideTurner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

I believe they tend to train up people to understand procedure, and then lay them off when they have a problem, therefore leaving kids with no knowledge to deal with the day to day issues. When a case becomes a problem, it is escalated to an old hat. They do their best, but until they master the art of shafting the general consumer, they only add confusion to the whole matter.
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:35   #10 (permalink)
elizabeth1
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

What surprises me more is these companies of solicitors who actually file these claims within courts etc.. against consumers.
These solicitors are fully aware that these cases/claims won't stick once the defendant defends and counterclaims etc.. - the solicitors are aware the protocols haven't been followed prior to filing the claims and they've either not seen the correct paperwork (CCA, default notices etc..) yet they still go ahead and waste court time.

It seems that the DCA's and solicitors are relying on the consumers never to question these claims and defend such claims? These companies really do push their luck.
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:49   #11 (permalink)
TideTurner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

That situation is about to change.

Since the judgement with the OFT, the banks are scrutinising the costs involved with legal action. If they continue to fight a lost battle, they will simply be throwing good money after bad.

Time to give up and face the consequences, anything else would not be in the best interests of their shareholders, and is therefore illegal.

The Board and Executive have a duty to ensure that the interests of their shareholders are maintained, and any money spent (albeit on legal costs) is done so with shareholders interests at heart.

Time to throw in the towel.

Tide
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Old 28th April 2008, 02:51   #12 (permalink)
Iceman54
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

A lot of solicitors set up "paper firms" which they then rent out to DCA's ( a practice frowned upon , and being investigated by the law society)

Most Solicitor's letters sent by DCA's have never been viewed by a real solicitor, they are merely a bullyng tool sent out by a higher echelon of bottom feeders within the DCA

Because of sites like this I think a lot of DCA's will have ceased trading within 12 months or so

Wouldnt it be great if the directors of these companies started getting phone calls and threats through the post................from the people they owe money too

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Old 28th April 2008, 03:08   #13 (permalink)
TideTurner
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Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Spot on Iceman.

Unfortunately, these people do not go away, because they have no other form of income, and have the advantage of their upbringing providing them with the ability to shaft their fellow man.

On the upside, sites like this are exposing them, maybe it would be an idea to expose the names of these people? No doubt they would get the sites shut down, but it could become a full time job for them.

Anything that is publicly available, including directorships, the addresses of same and accounts, could be published to expose these bullies.

Tide
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Old 28th April 2008, 13:27   #14 (permalink)
stevieb52
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Phewee! Cheers folks, and good luck Mariner I really hope all goes well.

I'll have a thorough read of all points made here and take it from there, in my mind I was thinking of going down the following route:

Send n244 to have judgement set aside
Send CPR Part 18 Request and also
Send Subject Access Request

Does that sound reasonable? Obviously I'll have a thorough read and see if that changes anything.

Thanks for all your support and advice.
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Old 28th April 2008, 21:04   #15 (permalink)
stevieb52
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: RBS... Irwin Mitchell... Help!

Hi vselym, have you any idea how I can "challenge the fast track element of the claim"?

I have searched on the forum and Google and nothing is coming to me (it has been a long day so if I'm being thick then apologies!) any help would be appreciated!

Thanks
Steve
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