SLC replied to my CCA request

[Tartan Barty]

I CCA'd the SLC in April and they replied within the 12 working days.

They have sent through copies of the 4 agreements (1992, 93, 94 and 95) that I have. All have the prescibed terms BUT....

3 are not signed by the SLC and 1 is signed by both parties.

I read on another thread that during this period they scanned in the originals and then binned them. The copies I have are all printed from a PC and not photo-copies.

They have not send me a statement of account for any of them.

Do they need the original agreement if they take me to court???

[tiglet]

Yes they do and both parties must have signed.

[rory32]

3 are not signed by the SLC and 1 is signed by both parties.

Although both parties must sign, it is extremely likely that a court would enforce the agreements as you have signed it.

[Tartan Barty]

Thanks Tiglet and Rory

So even if 3 are not signed by them and they are computer generated and not photocopies, they are still likely to be enforcable???

[rory32]

Yes. Unless the court directs them to produce the original document.

Civil Evidence (Scotland) Act 1988

5 Document as part of business records
(1) Unless the court otherwise directs, a document may in any civil proceedings be taken to form part of the records of a business or undertaking if it is certified as such by a docquet purporting to be signed by an officer of the business or undertaking to which the records belong; and a statement contained in any document certified as aforesaid may be received in evidence without being spoken to by a witness.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a facsimile of a signature shall be treated as a signature.
6 Production of copy document


(1) For the purposes of any civil proceedings, a copy of a document, purporting to be authenticated by a person responsible for the making of the copy, shall, unless the court otherwise directs, be—
(a) deemed a true copy; and
(b) treated for evidential purposes as if it were the document itself.
(2) In subsection (1) above, “copy” includes a transcript or reproduction.
(3) Sections 3 to 5 of the [1879 c. 11.] Bankers' Books Evidence Act 1879 (mode of proof of entries in bankers' books, proof that book is a bankers' book and verification of copy of entry in such a book) shall not apply to civil proceedings.

I think in this instance you could argue that copies would only be admisssable if the company can show a clear data trail from the original document to the copy, otherwise how would you know that the copy was a true copy. So you would be looking for them to demonstrate compliance through their document management system with BSI DISC PD0008:2004 – Legal Admissibility and Evidential Weight of Information Stored Electronically. This would cover every aspect of the procedure from document storage through scanning, indexing, document destruction to back up staff security and of course audit procedures.

[Tartan Barty]

Excellent info....although I do feel a little disappointed! Is it the same in Englandshire???

[rory32]

In England it would be

8 Proof of statements contained in documents

(1) Where a statement contained in a document is admissible as evidence in civil proceedings, it may be proved—
(a) by the production of that document, or
(b) whether or not that document is still in existence, by the production of a copy of that document or of the material part of it,
authenticated in such manner as the court may approve.
(2) It is immaterial for this purpose how many removes there are between a copy and the original.

[Tartan Barty]

So why does everyone on here go on about DCA/OC's having to produce the real thing in court. Surely they can just have a copy and prove that the original existed???

[rory32]

Surely they can just have a copy and prove that the original existed???

It's not that easy. That's why I mentioned BSI DISC PD0008:2004 – Legal Admissibility and Evidential Weight of Information Stored Electronically. You would need to show that the copy of the document is indeed a true copy. You could only do this by demonstrating that you have the correct systems/documentation in place and adhere to them. These after all are companies that can barely comply with a Subject Access Request.

[Tartan Barty]

So a DCA that has been sent a electronic copy of the agreement from the OC can't use that in court unless they can prove that the OC has complied with BSI DISC PD0008:2004 and that they themselves has complied with it? And I guess that if the OC sends a photocopy and the DCA scans it in then they would have to comply? Unless the OC gives the DCA the original agreement.

Am I understanding this right???

So I am clear, what would happen if the OC had photocopied the agreement and then lost the original. WOuld they be able to use the photocopy?

(PS thanks for explaining this! much appreciated)

[rory32]

Am I understanding this right???

Yes.

So I am clear, what would happen if the OC had photocopied the agreement and then lost the original. WOuld they be able to use the photocopy?

They may be allowed to use the photocopy unless you raised the issue of BSI DISC PD0008:2004. In which case they would only be allowed to use the photocopy if the had complied with this. The fact that they can no longer find the original would immediately suggest that they can not and have not complied with this legislation. Therefore they can not demonstrate that the copy is a true copy of the agreement.

[Tartan Barty]

Wonderful! All clear in my head now

[Tartan Barty]

Right then....I have had another letter through from SLC saying I must pay the balance off in 7 days as my repayments should have finished in Mar 08.

To date they have sent me 4 PC scanned copies of agreements; 3 not signed by them and 1 signed by both parties. They have not provided a statement of account, merely stating the balance, charges and the total due.

So do I write to them and tell them the account is still in dispute???

I have 4 defaults on my CF which all disappear in 2010, I would prefer not to get another one now but guess that if they did default me then it would be invalid due to the charges.

I am still paying them the amounts I offered in Jan 08 so what is the best course of action??

[master woody]

Your credit file is safe, you didn’t get credit scored for the loan, nor did you agree to a credit search. I’ve had 10s of default notice form SLC none have ever turned up on my credit file. Of course if they get a CCJ that would show up.


Your the first person I've come across not to get a faded photo copy of the CCA lucky you. Looks like SLC might of bought a new printer

The not signed issue has turned up once or twice before they say “we didn’t sign it before we scanned it in then signed the original to keep in records “as already pointed out i don't think there much mileage in that anyway.

set up a D/D for a token payment say £20 that might help, the next step they will take is to send your account DCA. Nothing to get to worried about. Just more junk mail.

[tiglet]

have a read through this thread: Emma vs Student Loans Company

It's very enlightening.

[Tartan Barty]

Update:
I wrote back to SLC saying that the agreements were unenforcable and that they had failed to send a statement of account showing every debit and credit. I also asked them if the agreements were held electronically.

They wrote back saying:

Your original loan agreements are held in secure storage by the SLC, copies of these are only microfilmed for printing purposes

Now the agreements they have sent are barely legiable and definately scanned as bits are missing and the margins are printer ones and not photocopier ones.

BUT ALL OF THEM ARE NOW SIGNED!!! (3 originally were signed by me but not them)

2 of them have 2 days between me signing and them signing. These to where from a South coast location and managed to get to Glasgow in a day and then signed the next. Now I would guess that SLC would have been very busy at the start of each new year so am I just lucky that I got personal service or should I trust that fishy fragrance thats coming from the freshly printed pages!!!

Me thinks another letter is coming....