laptop - no refund because of accidental damage

[leidenschaft]

hi all,

i have just joined this forum and am very excited about this site.
anyway, in august this year i purchased a laptop from currys. it broke after only a month. i wont go into details about the incompetence of curry staff but bottomline is that they wont fix it or give me a refund.
i have researched consumer rights and know about my right to claim a refund as the product was less than 6mths old and the trader has to prove that the defect was not present when the laptop was sold to me.
i have already written to the customer service deparment and they claim that i must have caused the damage. the psu socket is broken and apparently that can only happen if i misuse the laptop. they call it accidental damage.
i know thats pure nonesense but im not sure if i have a chance in court and whether i need to prove that i havent damaged the product.

i would appreciate if you guys could help me.
thanks.

[big blue one]

what brand is the lapto?

[Bookworm]

whether i need to prove that i havent damaged the product

Nope, they will have to prove that you did, if that's their defence.

[leidenschaft]

its a packard bell (piece of ..... - two of the keys from the keyboard just fell off)

thanks, bookworm. i think i needed to hear something positive to feel more confident. will send them another letter and go to court if necessary.

[Graham.Evans]

Currys seem to have a policy of blaming the customer so they do not have to pay out.
I have the same problem with a phone
Have you taken them to court yet?

[leidenschaft]

graham
no, i havent taken them to court yet. a few months ago i have passed on the case to trading standards but so far they have not been in touch for me (so they are pretty much not helpful at all).
i had to spend the last few weeks abroad so i dont know whether they may have been in touch via post. will check next week and if not give them a call. should they really be as incompetent as they seem at the moment i will write one more letter to curries and then take legal actions.
have you written to them yet about your claim? i hope things will go better for you than for me. please let me know if you have any success and advice.
good luck. x

[Graham.Evans]

Trading standards will not help yoou.
Go to Consumer Direct and they will get straight back to you.
They have told me I have a case and to proceed with the claim for the goods to be repaired or replaced.
If you reject the goods it is down to you to prove the fault was not yours.
If you request them to be repaired or replaced then it is down to them to prove that you caused the fault.

Graham

[rosiecotton]

Graham is right regarding the "burden of proof" (whose responsibility it is to prove their case).

In addition, you are too late to reject the goods for a full refund as it is 99..9% likely based on former case law that you will have gone past the reasonable time to reject under the Sale of Goods Act (usually 2-3 weeks in most "normal" faulty goods cases).

You could ask to rescind the contract (which is a partial refund less any wear and tear you have had from the product, which would be barely anything if it went wrong after a couple of months so you could press for a full refund). However you cannot legally rescind the contract until the trader has had a reasonable opportunity to repair or replace.

I will also point out that Trading Standards have no powers in civil law so they won't be able to force PC World to take any course of action. If they promised you that they would attempt to mediate, of course they should have done, but many TS departments don't have the resources to do this.

[sjc1985]

Whats the psu socket? Sorry, mummy brain kicking in lol... Is it the power socket? If so, my dads did exactly the same and he is currently taken currys to court for it x

[Graham.Evans]

PSU stands for Power Supply Unit
The PSU socket is where you plug the power in
They have just paid up in full plus costs after I issued the claim

[Paul77]

Hi all, I work for PC World (part of DSGi) in customer service, I would like to point out things about the previous posts - this is meant to be constructive!

Laptops are incredibly fragile! and this does not count as a manufacturing fault! - Fine china is fragile, if you chip a bit off it do you bring it back as faulty? I would be confident that 4 in 5 laptops i see each day are damaged 100% due to user negligence - 2 of those 4 will admit it and basically say "ah go on, give us a new one!", and the other 2 will deny it down to the ground, but listening to "I did nothing wrong" while looking at more dents than you can count, a PSU lead so frayed that we actually refuse to plug it in or worse a 4mm diameter hole literally through the screen and out the back (had that one today - I'm guessing a child with a screwdriver...) makes it very difficult to believe the customer.

The PSU socket on the majority of laptops is actually quite sturdy, and can usually only be damaged by tripping over the power lead, or constantly putting pressure on it (even just a little pressure over a period of time will weaken/break it - read the manual before you say you weren't told by the salesman)

I watch how everyone I know who isn't a techie treats their laptops - I'm surprised any of them still work! Picking them up by the screens, mashing the keypads like its a drum kit, trying to pull the extra inch out of the knot in the power lead by tugging at the laptop, tripping over the power lead, dropping them regularly and... of course - using them as a bloody coaster for their drinks! (<-- how daft do you have to be for that one?) Not a single one of them will admit to doing anything wrong, they all think its absolutely fine to treat their laptop like this - after all, its still under warranty!

The warranty only covers damage if it happens during use of the laptop as per the manufactures guidelines (again - see your manual, not the quick start one, the actual manual for these guidelines) Nobody I know (except the techies) treats their laptop correctly, why should DSGi pay for your misuse?

Excuse the rant! - Don't take any of that as me saying you do any of these - just what I have come to expect - just a little more ranting...

I've had customers arrive at the desk saying (well general gist of the conversation anyway)
Cust... "You sold me a damaged laptop!"
Me... "Lets have a look."
Cust... Fumbles to get the laptop out and drops it, their child laughs and says "thats the second time today dad!"

They honestly expect me to give them a new one and DSGi to pay for it? This is what we deal with for 4 in 5 returns, so we cant be expected to spot the 1 in 5 legitimate returns every time!

Again - sorry for the rant... its over now!

@Graham - DSGi paying up in full is not an admission of fault, it is an evasion of costs and bad publicity - they have some limit for what to take to court - based on price/margin that if its below the line they just pay up - it's just cheaper them and as the burden of proof is usually on the retailer, its difficult to win without plenty of evidence anyway.

Hope the helps people understand why us customer service folk can so easily take the stance of "Its your fault, there's nothing we can do"

Paul

[Graham.Evans]

Paul
The law is quire clear and it seems you are confirming it is DSG policy to break it.
I am one of the " 1 in 5 " customers who had to sue to get DSG to abide by the sale of goods act.
Yes customers do try it on ,but it is up to the seller to examine the goods and then make a judgement .
When someone tells me I must have dropped my phone without even looking at it then bad publicity will follow.
DSG did not just pay up to avoid the cost of going to court .
They knew they where in breach of the act and have apologised for the way this was handled. The shop manager responsible also apologised .
Needless to say I do not use Currys anymore.
Anyone else who is struggling can use Pauls note as proof of DSG shop policy

[ForestChav]

You bought the machine in August so it's still less than 6 months old.

In this case, the goods are presumed faulty from purchase and the retailer has to prove otherwise.

The law only covers you against non-conformity to contract at the time of purchase. Faults occurring due to wear and tear and misuse are not covered by the sale of goods act - as the defects did not exist when purchased.

So basically, if they prove it was due to accidental damage, you're snookered. Which is totally fair, as they shouldn't foot the bill for something which isn't their fault.

Have you taken it to a store or had them assess it at a workshop? They are legally obliged to do this if you are saying it happened in normal use, to prove the fault wasn't there when you bought it.

[gyzmo]

Well, they are not obliged to do it, but it would be silly for them not to if they want to mount a defence!

In relation to the issues about customers trying it on, yes there are some, but two wrongs do not make a right, which is why a retailer could not possibly use this as an excuse to not deal with an issue (well they could, but would probably get laughed out of court).

I would let Consumer Direct / your local Trading Standards know about this.

[old_andrew2007]

Hi
I have to agree with Paul77 a lot a people are heavy handed, and causing many faults themselves, so they really can't expect a replacement or free repair, unless they have accidental damage insurance.
I would advise getting this sort of cover for expesive items; can someone on line can supply details of insurance companies who offer this cover.

However with regard to legitimate complaints, may I be generous here, and state that some managers with in the DSGi group may not be fully aware of the sale of goods act 1979 as amended, that is stating the returned item is out of warrenty then suggest that their responsibility has ended.
It would be bad form to suggest that some try to misinform customers so I won't, I am sure they are advised by their head offices to treat customers fairly.
Why not look at this link to "don't get done get dom" here a PC WORLD manager here is reported to state the warrenty had ended on a laptop and was not able help.
BBC - BBC One Programmes - Don't Get Done Get Dom, Series 2, Episode 21
Who won! well is wasn't PC WORLD.
Incidently don't get into "heated discussions/ arguements with staff in any store just state your case, be assertive (I don't mean be aggresive), somtimes thats enough to convince them that you know your rights.
If asked to leave then leave the store, managers from some organisations have called the police to eject customers.
The local press are also very usful, they need stories that can be validated they seem to love taking a knock at the big boys, don't forget also your local trading standards.
Finally try not have telephone discussions, it is difficult to say who said what later, it is also expesive as often customer service numbers start with 0870 try to find their landline number by following this link SAYNOTO0870.COM - Non-Geographical Alternative Telephone Numbers
If I'm wrong I am sure I will be corrected when I say telephone calls can be recorded for your own use, I believe you may use this recording to produce a transcript, (but what use is this if the company deny any comments were made).
If you want to use this as evidence then you should have informed the other party that the call was being recorded, you don't need their consent you must however inform them.
They them have a choice of speaking to you or ending the call.
I think its always in our bests interests to write, keep a copy sending any letter as signed for giving them a resonable time to respond say within 14 days, be prepaired to go all the way to small claims court I am sure this rarely is necessary if your claim is ligitimate, you can find advice on this site on how to proceed.
This advice is based on my personal opinion,

[Misphit]

If you paid extra money for one of their 'anything happens' cover plans, then you would be covered for the damage you caused to the laptop.
If you haven't got any kind of extra protection coverage for the laptop then you can try taking them to court but will probably end up losing alot of money. Im pretty sure the salesman would have tried to sell you this kind of protection when you bought the laptop, if you didn't buy it you wont have a leg to stand on unless a fault was not caused by any kind of damage what so ever.

[old_andrew2007]

well I suggest that acciental damage cover whilst being excellent in the senarios put forward in the last post, it should not be purchased from a retailer look to having this cover as an option added it to you home contents insurance