Co-op Visa

[sosumi]

Sent for hubby's CCA on 3rd January. No reply, but they credited the £1 Postal Order to his account!
Last June we received this letter:

Now, as they were so keen to tell us about a possible Default under 'section 87 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974', it seems only reasonable to ask for a copy of the Agreement!
As with the Barclaycards, we intend to continue paying, but it will feel so much better to establish a mutual agreement, rather than feeling helpless!
So, should we send the CCA request again, or accept that their using the £1 postal order as a payment, is proof that they received the CCA?
Whoops! Left the A/C Number on!!
Nope - having a glitch. Anyway - they sent that letter last year. Now we're waiting for the Agreement.

[louis wu]

If you have sent £1 for a true copy of your CCA agreement, and they have failed to respond, why are you still paying?

If you have proof that you have sent it, and they recieved it, then they have clearly failed to respond in the prescribed time, and is (or is with most agreements) now unenforcable until a true copy is sent to you.

I am sure someone else will confirm this, and I suggest you confirm this, but IMO you are ok to withhold payment.

louis

[sosumi]

Thanks Louis
We sent the CCA request on 3rd January. Sent it Recorded Delivery but no proof from Royal Mail that it was delivered (just checked again today). So the proof we have that they received it is the latest statement from them, which clearly shows that in addition to our regular payment £1 was credited - '7 Jan PAYMENT - THANK YOU £1.00 CR'.
We haven't heard anything else from them.
I'm struggling to get my head round all of this, even now.
The next payment is due to be paid by Standing Order 1st February.

[Alphageek]

I read this by Jampot in his battles with the DVLA;

I trust the DVLA is aware of Royal Mail’s requirement to operate a Universal Postal Service and that, unlike many other countries, in the UK a letter becomes the property of the recipient upon posting, rather than upon receipt. There is a clear assumption that, when using Royal Mail’s services, documents (even official ones) can be considered ‘served’ purely by posting. Indeed, a quick check on other Government websites concludes that:

“A document may be served by leaving it at the appropriate address for service under this rule or by sending it to that address by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post.”

So, I think you have proof (your orange counterfoil) that you gave them the letter and they used the PO.

Irrefutable I think. I would think about your SO payment in Feb carefully if I were you. Might get their attention!

[TaxedAndConfused]

I think you can stop paying after the 30 days is up, not the 10+2. I may be wrong though, but I would make sure before stopping payments.

[monday blues]

12 + 2

[spamheed]

you can stop payting them 12 working days after receipt of the request, or 12 +2 to allow for delivery.

If you can prove the request was sent, then that's enough. after a further 30 calendar days, they can do nowt by way of enforcement, unless they take you to court and even then, they would have to produce the CCA

[sosumi]

Thanks all
I've managed to get that letter uploaded at last with our details omitted, and here it is:

[sosumi]

If they're issuing threats under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then where's the Agreement? If it's so important for them??

[Pinky69]

Ah, my dear friend Val - I know her well. They have your request and your £1 alright - they are trying to ignore it. Eventually you will be asked for another payment, at which point you will tell Val that you are still waiting for a reply to your CCA request and under s127 of the CC Act no further payments are payable by you until such times as you have been sent a copy of the agreement. Then you will be sent an agreement with no prescribed terms and just a date and your address on it - in other words, an application form. Then you just ignore it because Val knows only too well that cannot be enforced. She's all mouth and knickers.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I know Val too - but our acquaintance has been short. Eventually, she sent me an application form with no prescribed terms. When I pointed out that it was unenforceable, she sent me a rather indignant letter suggesting that as it was originally a Northern Rock account, it wasn't Co-op's fault, and would I send her some money anyway.

I then pointed out that the account number was wrong, so Val told me that it was changed when Co-op took over from NR. No, I said, it's different to the one on the latest paperwork. After a little while, Val came back to remind me that after a spot of ID theft, Co-op had closed the original account and started a new one, and had transferred the balance. Fine, said I - just let me have a copy of the credit agreement.... Alas, the realisation dawned upon Val that Co-op hadn't actually bothered to draw up a new agreement. So, she now has the original account, which Co-op closed, and which has a zero balance, and a new account with no agreement whatever (and that I never used). She hasn't written to me since.

[sosumi]

Thanks Pinky and SP
I've just cancelled the Standing Order, was due to go out on 1st February. They're definitely over the 12+2 days now, and like you say they've got the CCA request because they cashed the postal order.

[sosumi]

Letter and enclosed arrived yesterday. Letter says:

Dear Mr Sosumi,

Visa Account Number ****************

In response to your letter of 3 January 2008, I have enclosed a copy of the application form in proof of the above outstanding debt, the balance of which is £
Yours sincerely,
...
Customer Relations Adviser

And here's the application form:

[sosumi]

On the right-hand side of the application, under 'Declaration and Data Protection', it says:
'I have read the Credit Agreement overleaf etc'
So, where's that then??

[Boro]

How lovely

[sosumi]

Oh and somebody's cut a rectangle out of the bottom left-hand corner - newly done too!
So, it's okay for a bank to issue threatening letters relating to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - indeed they refer to it. But why don't they keep a copy of such a vital agreement?

You'd think these agreements would be stored in Gringots Bank and guarded by goblins wouldn't you?

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by sosumi

On the right-hand side of the application, under 'Declaration and Data Protection', it says:
'I have read the Credit Agreement overleaf etc'
So, where's that then??

I suspect that Co-Op (that'll be ones who claim to be the ethical bank, then...), haven't bothered to provide it.

Multiple choice question time. A bright shiny sixpence* to the boy or girl who can correctly answer the following questions:

Q1. 'Co-Op, like many creditors and DCAs, haven't properly complied with Sosumi's CCA request because...'

a) because they have a disregard for their obligations under the law and think they can get away with it

b) they know that the prescribed terms have to appear before the signature, and know the whole thing is unenforceable, but think they can get away with it

c) they think that even if they have failed to comply with the law, their incompetence is not a reason for them to have to take responsibility for their actions

d) they think that if they go to court and lose because they didn't comply with the law, their integrity is still intact

e) all of the above


Q2. Co-Op's attitude and behaviour is reminiscent of which politician:

a) Peter Hain

b) Peter Hain

c) Peter Hain

d) Peter Hain

e) all of the above