Capital Offence

[Don Quioxte]

Hey comrades! I'm gonna use this thread for postings re: my action against capital one.

Requested on Wednesday (by phone) no Data Protection Act letter for statements since May 2004 - they said they would be with me within 7-10 days - assured me I didn't need to write or send a Data Protection Act payment - suits me.

Was delighted today to see that Capital One have added another £20 charge for exceeding my £200 credit limit with a £6 transaction on Tuesdy. Rang them in Bangalore or Delhi or Mumbai, and hung up each time until I finally got through to Nottingham:

"Hello you've just charged me £20 for exceeding my limit by £6. Would you be so kind as to consider a refund?"

"No."

"Errm, okay then. What about the OFT findings - do you not realise your charges likely breach the fairness test of the UTCCRs, and are condemned by the OFT?"

"Nope. Totally legal. Read your terms and conditions."

"Yes, but you're t & c's are unfair and therefore unlawful. No court would award you "general damages" of £20 for me exceeding my credit limit by £6.."

"So."

"So please will you consider a refund. I don't want to drag your deceitful, manipulative, condescending, immoral, smelly arses through the Small Claims Court (Okay I didnt say this last bit). Just be reasonable with me."

"No. Is there anything else I can help you with today Mr Cervantes?"

(I was about to go into the whole " well as you've not helped me yet..." but I resisted)

"Yes actually. What is the address of your legal department for me to forward my preliminary letter outlining my intent to pursue legal action? Cheers, Thanks, Ta."


AND SO THE JOURNEY BEGINS....

[Natasha]

Interesting read.

Keep us updated

Best wishes

[Overdrawn]

Well done Ed, you sound full of confidence. I will keep an eye on how your claim goes. Good Luck my friend!

[Don Quioxte]

Man these guys are just incredible...

I paid £90 onto this account in light of the fact that I had gone £6 over my limit and they had applied a £20 fee (see my 1st post)...

I paid that amount by debit card on thursday by phone to Capital One.. Now here is one of my biggest ongoing gripes with Capital One:

Why should our payments take 4-5 working days to reach our accounts?!? I can understand if cheque or perhaps a telephone transfer... but when you pay by debit card that amount is either "authorised" or "declined". The merchant (Capital One) KNOWS that they will receive the money...

Yet Capital One insist on holding on to that payment for 4-5 working days before applying it to your account... they don't even show that the payment has been made, so they besmirch your character by putting you through to "payment assistant teams", your account still shows as overlimit online, and on the automated service... it is outrageous. All the while they are charging you debit interest on the balance... (I mean that money leaves my bank account/debit card immediately).. This is appalling and I am considering petitioning the court for costs with regards the debit interest charged during such occurences....

Imagine the scenario:

You are out for an eveing with a friend or a partner, and you decide to pop into a restauant for dinner.

You sit down, check the menu, order your food.

The waiter comes over.

Takes your debit card (they've had a few instances recently where people have made off without paying for their dinner - run with me on this!!)

Goes and debits your card for the price of the meal - and the payment authorised by your card issuer.

The waiter then comes back to the table and says "Sorry sir, the chef won't be cooking your meal until for another 5 working days until we physically receive that money - would you like some complimentary water while you wait?"

I mean it really is outrageous and I need to vent my frustration!!!

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Natasha]

I totally agree with you! that really gets me angery when it takes up to 5 working days!!!!!

[dave]

Who is in a position to make banks move this money in a timely fashion?

Maybe we should start a campaign against them.

[Spiceskull]

Maybe the 'why five days' is a question we should all be asking more frequently. As Ed says, it doesn't happen in any other aspect of life...good luck Ed...hope it goes well.

[Natasha]

well in most other countries the mooney is transfered the same day!!

[Spiceskull]

Originally Posted by Natasha

well in most other countries the mooney is transfered the same day!!

Which makes you wonder - as most of the UK banks have a global presence, what is their clearing period in other countries...?

[Don Quioxte]

Natasha you are quite right - in Sweden and a lot of other EU countries money is transferred within 3 hours (regardless of bank of origin, or destination account).

I keep hearing rumours that the UK will be forced down this route in the very near future otherwise it will probably be in breach of EU directives on free-trade.. I expect there will be some sort of parlimentary review in time?

HOWEVER.. I really am thinking of testing this with my action against Capital One because they seem to be the worst offender.. My experience with other lenders is that they do not make it as difficult for you to credit your account - and also most other institutions at least acknowledge that you have made payment.. yes they might not allow you to have access to the funds for say three days... but they mark your account as having received it... (which is crucial from calculating debit interest).

SERIOUSLY this has dawned on me, it's not just the inconvenience, and besmirchment that irks me.. Nor the often quoted "they are making money out of our money while they hold onto it"... but more so they are actually charging us debit interest during the period as well. Damnit.

Maybe we should start a new thread to gauge interest in this issue alone. See if we can develop a legal basis to challenge Capital One - I know it sounds up there with the fairies but maybe we could get enough momentum on this topic to launch a class action as a test case?

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Natasha]

i remember watching a program on tv about this subject i cant remember what countries it was but most clear it within the same day or at most the next day.
The banks over here put our money into the stock markets to earn as much as they can!!
Capital one prob put our cash in the stock markets too for a couple of days, as well as the bank that is holding our money in the first place, thus causing sometimes a 5 working day delay!!

[Don Quioxte]

[quote=Natasha]i remember watching a program on tv about this subject i cant remember what countries it was quote]

Ya it was Watchdog or Inside Out or one of those half hour jobs, and the guy was prancing round Sweden asking random strangers to transfer money to his account (all of whom did by the by).. couple years back now?!?

I paid cash in an envelope into a machine inside my local Halifax branch. This is for customers' convenience to save queueing. I couldn't see the money in my account online. Went into the branch and was told it takes 3 days to clear. "Darling" I said, "but cash doesn't clear, it's CASH." I was told they have to open the machine and check the money before it can be credited to an account. I argued that they must do that every night, but they even denied that.
Also one of their cheque clearances takes 7 days. Work that one out!
I worked in a bank 40 years ago and it only took 3 days to clear a cheque and that was by post.
Banks are crooks and staffed by clowns.

[Don Quioxte]

Ha.. I'm putting the windies up Capital One gist of the conversation I just had...

"Hello. I've just spoken to the Office of Fair Trading, and Consumer Direct, they've asked me to ring you just to clarify an issue before reporting you to them.."

"oh really? what's that?

"Well, you know I paid you that £90 on Thursday and you told me it won't show on y account for another 4-5 working days?"

"Yes I can see that payment."

"Well, as it was paid by debit card, you received an authorisation code that approves the payment, deducts it from my account, allocates it to your merchant number, and is guaranteed to be honoured by my bank."

"Yes."

"So my question is where is that money? Why if you insist on not allowing me to have access to it as cleared funds, do you not at least mark my account as having received that payment?"

SILENCE, sound of static, re-adjustment of headset

"See, I've just realised that not only do you bugger me about by ensuring I dont have cleared funds for another week, you continue to charge me debit interest.." (I then launch into a monologue on ethics, the restaurant analogy (see previous posts) and how I am raising a complaint with the OFT with regards Capital One's payment terms...

SOUND OF PIPED MUSIC AS I AM PLACED ON HOLD BEFORE:

"Mr Cervantes, I have had to fill out a form requesting that a manager call you bck within the next two hours to discuss this issue.. blah blah"

Well I don't care, the more hassle I can cause them, the better - they're gonna have to file an injunction for a restraining order against me soon.. and they'll lose that case as well!!!

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Spiceskull]

Any new tactic to keep them on the hop is a good tactic...good on yer Ed.

[Josiedoll]

your out for a night story struck a chord with me. I paid off my capital one credit card in full and 4 days later took my family out to a famous pizza restaurant. My card was refused 10 times. I spoke to somrone at capital one and they said that although the money had been put onto my account it had not cleared and they would not extend me £24.90 to pay for my meal. I was really annoyed. I had no cash on me to pay as pay day was 1 day away. The people at the restaurant were great and said I could come in the next day with the money. When I complained in writing to capital one they said they were sorry but...............

[Don Quioxte]

Yes it's incredible. Capital One certainly seem to be the worst offenders out of all the financial service providers.

I have just finished writing a three page complaint focusing largely on the length of time it takes to credit the account, and their failure to implement admi procedures that at least note the account holder as having mad a payment (for interest purposes).. oh and there is quite a good bit on the crap 'automated system' that isn't really automated because it requires you to supply the customer service agent in Bangalore or Mumbai or wherever with all the account information when you eventually get through..

But I think my closing paragraph summarises it quite nicely:

"I invite you to respond to this letter addressing;


i) Capital One’s failure to provide a mechanism whereby customers can credit their account at their own behest and in a time-frame which is consistent with other financial service providers;
ii) the absence of appropriate administrative processes, whereby accounts are updated with payment information in a timely and fair fashion;
iii) justification for the charging of debit interest after a payment which has been approved and made in good faith by the customer;
iv) frustrations generated by the automated service;
v) poor level of service dispensed by your Indian call centre.


You need not reply to the issue regarding your unfair and unlawful regime of charges as per Common Law, Statute, and recent consumer regulations, as this is a matter I am pursuing separately and will be happy for you to defend in the Small Claims Court should it prove necessary."

Well they reckon it costs them £20 every time they send me an automatically generated letter.. based on that, I calculate they will spend the GDP of a small to medium-sized African nation having to "manually intervene" in response to my letters...

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Don Quioxte]

Hey comrades..

Busy busy day.. received in post statements relating to my older capital one credit card.. but bizzarely only 3 months worth instead of the 12? Didn't wanna get too uppity on the phone as I had never had to send a £10 request or letter to obtain any f the statements.. when I got thru I explained to the customer service guy (english), who was unnervingly helpful..

"Oh right Mr Cervantes, you only received 3 months, ha, that's not very good now is it..?"

I'mgetting worried at this point thinking Ive rung someone else..

"Right, well let me just call your old account up on screen, yep Ive got it here"

Again, usually this part takes forever..

"Do you think rather than you guys post out the statements again (another 10 working days) you might just go through them with me on the phone.."

Fat chance Im thinking...

"Yes certainly, Mr Cervantes.. Right I can see you had a total of X charges over X months, here we go.."

Unbelievable. I'm now in shock and having to take a tranquilizer to contain my disbelief...

Long story short, got all the info I needed, calculated charges (£320 on £200 limit card over total of 22 months) - just sent Prelim letter.

Also spent afternoon (after coming down off the ketamine), writing yet another letter to supplement the Prelim, where I state without prejudice my genuine concern and shock at the particularly aggressive regime of fees/charges Capital One operates..

Would love to post the letter here.. but it's too long here's a wee taster, an onion barjee before the vindaloo for those of you still reading!!!

"In effect Capital One applied a regime of charges that in total represents 160% of the maximum credit ever offered to me; £320, on a credit card with a limit of £200 over a period of less than 22 months. These charges are on top of the 29.9% APR that has continued to be paid during this period, as agreed compensation for the lending provided by Capital One.

I am writing this letter from a personal and not legal perspective. I passionately believe that such charges and their aggressive application are grossly unfair. If Capital One maintain that their response to my account was within the terms and conditions, and thus ‘fair’, then of course I will have no option but to pursue my claim via the Small Claims Court and I am confident that I will be successful. My motives in pursuing this action are not wholly pecuniary, it is equally about being treated with a degree of respect, sensibility, and fairness. "


Anyways keep the momentum people, we're all individuals customers, but the collective of the consumer is proving a pretty powerful force!!

[EricTheRed]

I have £1180 worth of charges on 2 credit cards of £200 limit.

One card stands at outstanding balance of £473 and the other is £103.

I got a call yesterday saying that my payment (for the lower balance card) was overdue, which it was n't and i was also told that I was over the limity on this card. When I explained to her she was wrong she checked it out and apologised.

My LBA for £1180 is in the post anyway. They should owe my about £700 plus costs and interest

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Don Quioxte]

eric i'd be seeing red if I was you..

£1180 on £200 credit limitis absolutely ridiculous... how did that happen? I'm only asking because Capital One are usually very very shrewd - they allow you to exceed your credit limit by never more than £10 before declining the card.. enough to incur the £20 overlimit fee, but not enough to concern them in any way..

I mean this may be a bit stupid of me but I could almost stomach a charge if Id been allowed to kick the arse out of the card and actually derived some benefit - but Capital One are absolutely unbelievable - I am frankly shocked if you really have paid £1180 in charges on a credit limit of £200..

Keep me posted..