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Old 13th November 2008, 11:37   #21 (permalink)
SB100
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

I'm just about to write to them- would tou mind sharing what you're sending them?

Thanks
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Old 13th November 2008, 13:28   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Lexis, I have linked you to mine and OH's capital one so called agreements. Neither of these are compliant.. however you should have received something fairly similar

Just Realised Cap 1 Agreement.. Isnt !!


Citizenb - V - Capital One
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Old 13th November 2008, 15:08   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

The following is also and interesting read...

Horwich farrelly / Robinson Way
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Old 14th November 2008, 23:35   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Thanks CB, I've had a quick look, but I'll need to go back later and read through properly as I'm only in and out for a few days.

SB100, this is the letter I sent them. Feel free to use it if you would like - it's a mix of several I've found throughout the site, along with a bit I like about the final response (courtesy of CB). If you have your own thread I'm sure you'll get ideas from that too, so you really have to decide what you're happy with sending.

I tend to explain exactly what I want (and what they know they should have supplied) in order to give them as little wiggle room as possible, but I know other members who prefer to be more vague when sending the non-compliance letters for precisely that - because they know what they need to do.

Re − Account Number xxxxx

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE
FORMAL COMPLAINT

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, postmarked xth October and received on the xth October, the contents of which are noted.

I note that you have replied to my request by sending a copy of the current terms and conditions associated with the account. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is still in default under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (the Act).

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account, providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, received at your offices on the xxth September.

Sending only the current terms and conditions is a breach of the Act and Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as, apart from the information that the regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement. For the avoidance of any doubt section 3(1) of the 1983 regulations shows that, subject to certain limited exceptions, any copy of an unexecuted agreement must be a ‘true copy’. This means that it must be identical to the agreement as presented or sent to the debtor for signature.

Section 3(2) of the same regulations states what may be excluded from copy documents: There may be omitted from any such copy- (a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru*ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy.

What you have sent me does not have the required inclusions, and is not in the correct form.

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law, as shown below.

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.


You had until the 15th October 2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into, and currently remain in, default of my request.

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006), relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair. I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states:

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:
h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment


2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:
k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or
disputed debt.

Whilst the account remains in dispute (for clarity, the lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute), under section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 you may not enforce the agreement. This includes, but is not limited to, the following:

-You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
-You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
-You may not pass this account to any third party.
-You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies. The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent (given in the form of a signed credit agreement) will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.
-You may not issue a default notice related to this account.

Please note that to register information with the credit reference agencies, or to issue a default notice, would also be in breach of Section 13.6 of The Banking Code, which stipulates that you can only register such information if the amount owed is not in dispute.

I am also giving formal notice that under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act I require you to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

I would ask that if it is not your intention to fully investigate my complaints, that you advise me of your final response at the earliest opportunity in order for me to escalate my complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Also, please ensure you enclose a copy of your standard complaints procedure so that I am aware of the timescales afforded to you.

I look forward to your prompt reply.

Yours sincerely


Don't forget - do not sign it!!!


Hope this helps


Lexis
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Old 28th November 2008, 15:42   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Okie dokie

Had a letter back from them saying essentially that it is compliant, they're not obliged to send anything else, and they'd like all their money back right now (I re-arranged the payment plan a couple of weeks ago to give a bit of breathing space, so this I'm hoping is hot air).

I'll post it later, but my scanner is out at the moment and I'm a bit of a girl when it comes to that I can put up shelves and stuff, but the scanner gets me every time.

What I'm wondering now is, is there any way I can get them to send what they actually have in the way of any agreement (rather than a blank current set of terms) without going down the court route?

Would an Subject Access Request work for this perhaps?

Thanks for any help.

Lexis
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Old 28th November 2008, 16:04   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Hi Lexis, I dont know what to advise here. If they havent got a copy of the agreement then an Subject Access Request isnt going to produce it either. I wonder if waiting them out until they set someone else on you.. then you can send them a version of the HBOS/BOS letter. However, if you are paying them on a reduced plan, they might not take it any further at the moment.

Bit of a dilemma methinks.
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Old 28th November 2008, 17:17   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

But that would be good CB, if I can do the Subject Access Request and specifically request a copy of the signed executed agreement and they chuck the same old thing in, then they're either not complying with the Subject Access Request, or they don't have a proper agreement.

If it's the first then I assume they'd be in trouble with the Information Commissioners Office (and if it got to court, the judge), if it's the second then it just confirms what I think, which is that they don't hold a proper copy.

What I'm really saying is, is it possible to ask for sight of a signed etc copy within an Subject Access Request, or does it fall under the same rules as for a CCA (ie that they can wriggle out of it unless I decide to push them to court action)

I hope that makes sense

Lexis
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Old 28th November 2008, 21:09   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Hi Lexis, yes of course, my apologies.

Yes, you should in fact make asking for a copy of the agreement one of the first requests on the Subject Access Request list

Under the CCA 1974 regs they are obliged to send you the copy within 12 +2 days and enter default of that request if not supplied. If they dont supply it with the Subject Access Request then you make a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office, with the next step being court enforcement to supply
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Old 4th December 2008, 13:03   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Hello hello

I've just had a look at maz's thread where BOS issued a default notice.

CCM posted this helpful bit

Quote:
Heres the info on DNs to help you,

35. Section 2 (5) and (6) of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 sets out the following
(5) Where any statement is required to be in a form specified in a Schedule to these Regulations and is reproduced in the notice, then apart from any heading to the notice, trade names or names of parties to the agreement-

(a) the lettering in the statement shall be afforded more prominence (whether by capital letters, underlining, large or bold print or otherwise) than any other lettering in the notice; and

(b) where words are both shown in capital letters and underlined in any statement specified in a Schedule to these Regulations, they shall be afforded yet more prominence.

(6) The wording in any such statement shall be reproduced in the notice without any alteration or addition, and in relation to any statement to be contained in the notice the requirements of any note shall be complied with, except that the words "the creditor" may be replaced by the name of the creditor, by the expression by which he is referred to in the agreement or by an appropriate pronoun, and any consequential changes to pronouns and verbs may be used.
36. The notice fails to include the following statement in the form as shown

"IF THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE BREACH

37. Also the notice fails to set out the statement as set out below

"IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU [OR A SURETY]"


38. The statements referred to in points 36 & 37 are laid out in schedule 2 of Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561)

39. For a creditor to be entitled to terminate a regulated credit agreement where there is a breach, demand repayment in full or take any legal action to recover any monies due under the agreement, a creditor must serve a Default Notice under section 87(1) CCA 1974 which states
(1) Service of a notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 (a "default notice ") is necessary before the creditor or owner can become entitled, by reason of any breach by the debtor or hirer of a regulated agreement,-
(a) to terminate the agreement, or

(b) to demand earlier payment of any sum, or

(c) to recover possession of any goods or land, or

(d) to treat any right conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred, or

(e)to enforce any security.
40. I note the opening part of section 88(1), which states
88. Contents and effect of default notice.

- (1) The default notice must be in the prescribed form.......
The word must makes it clear that no variation is acceptable. Therefore it cannot be dispensed with as a De Minimus issue



41. I note that the regulations do not allow any variation in the form of these statements and there fore it is suggested that where the statements are not as laid down in the regulations the default notice is rendered invalid as a consequence


On the notice I had from Cap1 - the bit in red does not have the 'or a surety' on the end - does that cause them any problems?

I can't find the regulation on the net so that I can have a look and see if the rest is done properly - can anyone point me in the right direction for them please?

Thanks

Lexis
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Old 4th December 2008, 19:54   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

I dont think I can help on this one, Lexis. However, if that is what the regulations say.. then it must be correct. I think I have seen it said that the prescribed terms are not to be messed with as well.. I have looked through some of OH's default notices and it would be brilliant if that missing bit makes a difference, cos only one of them has it on
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Old 4th December 2008, 20:09   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

I just found this from a defence by Paul Walton (Champion against RBS )If you scroll down you will see that what CCM has posted is absolutely correct so yes.....Yipeee.. looks like you might have found another nail.

Walton v Barclaycard
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Old 5th December 2008, 12:09   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Thanks CB, that's sounding good isn't it And for you too it looks like!!!

I'm going to get OH to scan my default in later, then see if I can get CCM to have a look and just confirm I'm not making a huge mistake and misreading the default somehow, as he seems to know his onions on defaults. Then (assuming they've cocked up, which I'm crossing everything for), try and work out a letter telling them as much.

As for getting a copy of anything they have included in the Subject Access Request, I've amended the request to:

- Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any original documents and their original associated terms and conditions you hold in support of the same. I wish to make it plain I do not require or want any blank/generic documents, but only actual copies of signed documents and their associated terms etc. If you no longer hold these, or can not fulfil my legal request in any other way, I require you to inform me of this in writing, including the reasons for not supplying anything mentioned, or for supplying anything that varies from the specific format I have requested.



Is that ok do you think?


Lexis
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Old 8th December 2008, 10:24   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Perfect
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Old 11th December 2008, 15:13   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lexis200 V Capital One (CCA)

Received Subject Access Request today - counting down....

I've decided not to bother responding to the letter they sent stating the blank document was enforceable. I'll wait and see what the Subject Access Request turns up, and go from there - that gives me Christmas off
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Old 12th December 2008, 09:05   #35 (permalink)
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