Petitions discussion posts moved from petition thread

[Spiceskull]

Originally Posted by phatram

931

Signed...

......and on and on and on and on and on........

[louis wu]

Maybe I shouldn't judge others by my own standards, but if I'd removed someones post, I would have sent a message explaining the reasons behind it. Yeah, ok people (mods) havn't got time to respond to individuals, but I thought this site was more of a community, with the spirit a community brings.

I suppose I should just accept a CAGBot message telling me it had been removed, accompanied with a straightforward 'do not reply to this message', so no discussion allowed. Does appear to be the way you would treat a child though.

This post I found confusing, as there was nothing in Bankfodders post to warrent such a statement-

Originally Posted by NATTIE

BankFodder people are not listening and are reading your view as a tacit endorsement on this site of an e petition. Can I ask if you are happy for the petition to be on the forum at the moment?

If the full post is read, you will see that at no point does he say is unhappy with the e-petition.

If this issue is such a big deal it should have been discussed, and directions posted much earlier in the thread. If necessary this thread should have been suspended from the word go! After all, it was noticed at post #13.

When one of the site founders makes the comment,

'If 187 people have already signed yours then learly it shouldn't just be stopped as that would be quite offensive to those people who are trying to express their will.'

it sends the message that although probably not condoned, it certainly isn't a topic never to be discussed again.

I would not involve myself with anything that I felt would harm this site, but this petition does not mention CAG, and is not offensive to anyone. Maybe I am just being naive, but is thread really a problem?

Obviously from now on, I will have to be very careful with anything I post here. Its a shame I feel this way, and I hope I have just got the wrong end of the stick, however, the fact remains that this has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

So, now we have had a mod stating that the issue of petitions is being discussed. I did not read a comment that this thread is now barred. That statement seems to have been made unilaterally by another ordinary member. It is easy to freeze this thread, but it wasn't done, so what justification is there for this line

'which means do not post it on the site until a decision is made'

it certainly hasn't been backed up by a Mod, and as I say, the thread is still open.

The link has been removed, and there is nothing being posted now that is in anyway controversial.

Please feel free to put me in my place, after all I am not an 'elite' member, and have only tried to help people when they have posted a question. If necessary I will further explain my feelings, but I don't think I would like to associate myself with this topic again, and would prefer to leave the last word with someboby else.

Louis


Please feel free to report this post, I personally couldn't care less.

[Karnevil]

Details regarding the sites position on petitions will be posted tomorrow.

[Janet-M]

=louis wu;671436]Maybe I shouldn't judge others by my own standards, but if I'd removed someones post, I would have sent a message explaining the reasons behind it. Yeah, ok people (mods) havn't got time to respond to individuals, but I thought this site was more of a community, with the spirit a community brings.

I agree with you and whenever possible we do try and let people know if their post has been edited / removed etc .Sometimes it is just to hectic and we do not have the time that is why an automatic email is sent out so at least you are told in some way.If you then do still require a reason and the mod has not left a reason in the post then you can always just PM them.
If you look at how few of us are available and how many users are on at anyone time you may then understand why we just do not have the time .

[phatram]

I have pm'd somebody, it was weeks ago and I cant remember who it was.
If they don't want to show the link thats fine.
I shall post the PM'S office answer to the petition when I get it.

[louis wu]

Somebody took the time to read the thread, then read my post. That person then took the step of deciding that the link wasn't appropriate, as the link in the original poster post was removed.

Further more, that same person, however busy they were, took the decision to remove my entire post. And then finally, order an automated message (maybe that gets done without 'manual intervention', but maybe not) stating the obvious that my post has gone.

So you see, that entire process obviously took a certain period of time, and therein lies my disappointment. After spending so much time doing all the above, it was deemed that I was just not important enough to send a simple 'had to remove the post, sorry, a decision/explanation will be given when we have more time, regards xxxx PM me if you want to discuss this further' (That took me 17 seconds, and I cant type for toffee).

So it takes 4 days to get a one line

Details regarding the sites position on petitions will be posted tomorrow.

and then another day for a post from Janet-M (which I do appreciate by the way). I have to say though, I doubt there would have been any response if Bill-K hadn't made his post hi-lighting the problem.

Janet, you say there arn't enough mods/helpers, and yet the number of members hs exploded over the past few months. May I make the suggestion that more people are encouraged to become mods/helpers, after all, I am sure you would have many takers as the same names are always here. Or, is this a private club, you only get in by private invite only. I respectfully suggest that if the current number of mods/helpers is not enough, and if no more are added to your numbers, then this site is doomed. Libelous comments will slip through, petty arguments will break out, in short, the inmates will take over the assylum. Perhaps more worryingly, maybe posts made by people with vested interests in supplying mis-information will appear, and mistakes will be made on claims (and we know who will benefit from that).

When I wrote this,

Yeah, ok people (mods) havn't got time to respond to individuals, but I thought this site was more of a community, with the spirit a community brings.


the message I wanted to convey was that it was the feel of this site which made me log on nearly everyday to help others. How much longer will that spirit survive if you have to rely on censorship with no explanation?

If you are left with no time to explain your decisions to your members, and rely on automated messages to pass on your decisions, then I wonder if CAG is slowly becoming the same as the very beast it is fighting?

Louis

[Karnevil]

Well I'm sorry if my answer isnt long enough for you. We are working on a new forum for petitions which needs to be confirmed and instigated before anything happens. I'm not directly involved, I was trying to reassure you things were in hand.

[louis wu]

Instead of removing more posts, why can't we just have the promised decision as to whether petitions will be allowed?

Thank you.

(perhaps you can let us know if we are also allowed to post on this thread. If you decide that this post is to be removed also, please PM me and I will cease posting and never mention this again.)

[Janet-M]

Louis I understand what you are saying but this is a self help forum .All the information is freely available on the site and users assist each other in their claims .We do not just answer posts we research ,answer support , communicate with the media etc etc .I think you may misunderstand what our role is .Some users get into extreme difficulties by simple mistakes and it can take a vast amount of our time advising and correcting this.

As for if the petition will be allowed or not I think that was answered by Bankfodder ages ago .The reason links to the petition have been removed is because we do not want it posted all over the site as we do not want any duplicate posts , it is in the campaign forum already.

Before you state that I have found the time again to come here and reply .I was pointed to your post as you asked me a direct question I have had the manners to reply and whilst doing so I have a user who is panicking, as she has had all her benefits taken , sitting by her phone waiting for me to phone her back so I will now return back to what I was doing and what is more important.


So before anyone complains that we have not answered a post quick enough try and think of what we might just be doing instead

[louis wu]

I have no complaints that you have posted on this thread.
I have no complaints the thread has been moved.
I have no complaints with you helping another member with a benefits issue.

I do take issue with

As for if the petition will be allowed or not I think that was answered by Bankfodder ages ago .The reason links to the petition have been removed is because we do not want it posted all over the site as we do not want any duplicate posts , it is in the campaign forum
already.

I may have missed that in another thread, but the post by bankfodder did not give any indication that the petition debate was answered.

Bankfoddeer said this in a post on this very thread

Some of the have had a discusson about pettiions in the last couple of weeks.

If 187 people have already signed yours then learly it shouldn't just be stopped as that would be quite offensive to those people who are trying to express their will.

I am very sorry because I have not read your petition that I would suggest that at this point it might be an idea for you to contact Vampiress who raised the subject amongst the moderators in the first place.

These comments state

1. only mods were aware of a debate
2. it was not a taboo subject
3. further discussion with Vampiress was encouraged.

This to me says its ok to continue, and when added to the fact that the thread was left 'open', looks like a thumbs up to me, and I fail to see how any other conclussion could be made.


So now, a decision is made, and a solution found. The handling of this has been uncomfortable, and this comment

So before anyone complains that we have not answered a post quick enough try and think of what we might just be doing instead

if aimed at me (which as it was contained in a post directed at me I assume it was), it distasteful; I never complained that an answer wasn't made quick enough, I was pointing out that responses were made that were not properly thought out, and a little personal note that takes seconds is not really too much to ask. (Incidently, my last post was made before I was aware the thread had been moved; I was only aware of this when the automated message informed me of the move about 12 hours later)

My comment to yourself, Janet, was just that, a comment not a question, made with regards to mod/helper numbers, and not the petition. I posted the comment because I believe it to be correct, and did not expect any communication from you, just maybe a discussion between yourselves as to whether the point had any validity. Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but I certainly didn't require or need the lecture as to what your role is, and to state that this issue was more important than helping your other user, well that was purely gratuitous on your part. I exonerate you from having to reply directly to this, and certainly would hate for you to give this any more of your time, as I am sure it can be put to far better use on other subjecs (that also applies to all mods/helpers).


If any of my remarks/comments are considered 'out of order' then I wish to state that is was never my intention to cause offence to anyone and I apologise if I have done so, however, personally speaking this was a point of principle that I needed to air.

[Karnevil]

Okay. Lively and myself have tried to reorgainse the way of dealing with templates in order to make it simpler to find, and thus sign them, and to try and keep the instances of multihijacking of threads with petitions links down.

Hopefully this solution is satisfactory to everyone and we can keep things concentrated on the fight against the banks.

Its simply a matter of organisation...the site is massive so it takes some time to get things done. You just have to bear with us and if things are missed then pm or post in this site question and suggestions forum would be a good way of bringing things to the site teams attention. It has taken more time than it should have and we tried to keep you informed.

I will leave this thread open for further ideas on organising the petitions thread, and pros/cons of petitions but can we please keep the discussion on a less personal level.

Please keep posts on the individual petitions threads relating to that particular petition only.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by BankFodder

In the days of purely paper petitions there had to be a real campaign to go out and get the signatures. With electronic petitions, I am sure that there are hundreds of petitions which are started and then just dwindle into nothing because it is effortless and a petition is never called to the attention of anyone.

Dam true because people fail to call them to people attention they do dwindle into nothing, well here is your chance to drawn this one to 120,000 members attention and make sure that does not happen

I think that if one is going to start a petition then there has to be a real examination of what the petition is saying, to whom it will be addressed, the possible effect of it and how the signatures will be obtained. I think it needs an enormous amount of work and there has to be a relentless campaign by a dedicated team of people to go out and get those signatures.

The Great thing with the e-Petition is that no one has to go out and get signatures, all people have to do is send email to friends, etc and lets face it with the turn outs we had to the OFT protest, this is probably the better option.

I am not even sure how many signatures would be needed on a petition that would really have some effect. I can imagine that it would be well over 100,000 and maybe a quarter of a million.

I reckon we can easy get over that amount, soon as Consumer action group has emailed it database of members and if martin Lewis does the same we be over half way there in a few days (then the media will do the rest)

In a discussion with the moderators it was suggested that a petition to the UK government would not have much of an effect as they have a political agenda which is to keep the banks onside in the run-up to the next general election. Even after a general election the government will always need the assistance of the banks and to take action which will cause the loss to the banks of £4.5 billions per year is scarcely conceivable. It is an ideal issue for parties in opposition, but not for parties once they are in government.

Sorry I see what you’re saying but in that case what the point of doing anything? It is only with people power that things get changed.

Worst case the petition will only generate a lot more publicity, which will help more people find help. ( therefore we cannot lose)

We rather thought that a European petition to the European Petitions Committee would be rather more useful.

Good idea, could run a petition to them as well hiting from both sides is always better,

I am very sorry because I have not read your petition that I would suggest that at this point it might be an idea for you to contact Vampiress who raised the subject amongst the moderators in the first place.

We would be very interested in supporting a properly thought out and properly run petition campaign -- but it would have to be very carefully planned for it to stand any chance of success.

Agree and disagree, you said you not even read your members petition so how do you know it was not thought out?

Secondly planning is great but that what the OFT are doing planning and planning but taking no real action, action is the only and best way forward.

Therefore I would urge you to send out an email to members asking them to sign the petition or at least hold a vote on it.

[Mistermind]

More details from petition creator

This petition is to ask the government to bring in legislation that prevents banks or any company offering finance, or credit agreements from applying charges (Penalty charges) for items as Bounced DDs, bounced cheques going overdrawn, late payment or changes alike. We ask that the Government bring in legislation that before any company can apply such charges to a consumer that a Court, must rule that the level of charges outlined in the contracts that a company/organisation wishes to present to a consumer, is fair and reasonable and is compatible with the UTCCR. This will also better protect the consumer and the vulnerable who’s only cause of action at the moments is to start legal proceeding against the company that has applied such charges. It will force companies to legally prove that their contacts are fair and transparent. we request that parliament make it a criminal offence for any Bank or company to take such charges from state benefits without a court approval/order.

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Not sure if the above is the actual text in the Petition to the Prime Minister, aiming for 1 million signatures. As this only came out last Thursday, more details would be welcomed.