OFT Freedom of Information request submitted today

[oktopusinc]

Dear Sirs,

I would like to make a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act.

I would like you to provide me with the following information in regard to your investigations into unfair credit card charges and unfair bank charges.

1. When did your investigation into unfair credit card charges start.

2. Can you provide me with a list of credit card companies contacted during the investigation and dates that they were a. contacted regarding the investigation and b. contacted with the information stating that their charges were unfair.

3 & 4. The same as 1 & 2 but in relation to bank charges.

5. What prompted these investigations into credit card charges and bank charges

6. Copies of the credit card companies and banks replies to your assertion that their charges were unfair.

7. Copies of any evidence the credit card companies or banks provided in regards to their actual costs in the charges that they levy e.g. a breakdown of the actual cost to a bank of someone going overdrawn by 10 pence and being charged £38.00 as a result.

[robert_harper_2000]

Please post what they send you would love to see it

Excellent post

[jb79]

Me too, me too!!!!!!!!

Any joy yet???????

[BankFodder]

They will reply that they are prevented from disclosing information by the Enterprise Act

[meagain]

Originally Posted by BankFodder

They will reply that they are prevented from disclosing information by the Enterprise Act

Out of interest, which particular bit of Part 8 would they claim prevents them from disclosing? My first random thoughts is perhaps S228, or S237(2) in Part 9.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Wild Billy]

Out of interest, which particular bit of Part 8 would they claim prevents them from disclosing? My first random thoughts is perhaps S228, or S237(2) in Part 9.

It would be Part 9 of the Enterprise Act rather than Part 8 but not too sure of the specific section.

I actually think there is no reason why at least part of the request should not be met:

1) No reason not to say when the investigation started.
2) No reason not to say which companies responded to the consultation and when- is it in the OFT report anyway?
3) and 4) Not sure about this one. Relates to an ongoing investigation, although don't really see that there is much reason not to disclose who has been written to.
5) Again, I don't really see why this wouldn't be disclosed, although I would be surprised if it hasn't already been stated somewhere and that will be repeated.
6) Tough. I think there could be legitimate reasons for not disclosing this- market sensitive information etc. Perhaps documentation could be redacted?
7) Very tough. There is no way that is going to be disclosed for the same reason as 6).

I actually wonder whether it might be worth asking a few less obvious questions to tease out how seriously the OFT is taking this. Maybe....

1) How many staff and/or man-hours were dedicated to the CC investigation and how many to the bank charges investigation?
2) Please give dates of meetings held during the course of the CC investigation and who attended.
3) How many complaints about credit card charges did you receive in the 24 months prior to the investigation into credit card charges, during the investigation into credit card charges, and since the conclusion of the investigation?
4) How many complaints about bank charges did you receive in the 24 months prior to the investigation into bank charges and how many have you received since announcing the investigation?

What do you think? Don't know but think all of those could probably be answered under Freedom of Information Act without the exemptions being invoked. Worth a go?

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[BankFodder]

I agree very much that it is worth a go.
Would you be prepared to do it. We would be very interested to know the results

Also I don't know what part of the Enterprise Act they are invoking. Maybe that could be asked as well so that we could have a look for ourselves.

[Wild Billy]

I agree very much that it is worth a go.
Would you be prepared to do it. We would be very interested to know the results

Can't really do that but I could make suggestions.

How many Freedom of Information Act requests has this group made as a single entity? If there have been lots then I really think we should be trying to be more focused and sending one that covers all the questions we would want to ask rather than lots of individual Freedom of Information Act requests. Could we use this thread to compile a list of questions and then someone take responsibility for submission to the OFT?

Other thing we should do is send it to the Chairman (?) or Chief Executive (John Fingleton) directly. Send everything to the same person. We should also say that any refusal will lead to us asking for an internal review which would include a copy of the documented decision to not make the disclosure and who made that decision.

[Glenn UK]

Id be happy to help if i can, i think the first thing is to make sure what we are hoping to get from this letter?

It probably sounds obvious but the questions we ask and the way we ask them must be phrased to at least try to illicit the response we require if its available.

I dont know anything about the Freedom of Information Act but reading what BF et al posted I am getting the feeling that even with the support of this act there is uch that we wouldnt get.

My though is that what we want is to have evidence that the banks new about the unlawfulness of their charges before the announcement made by the oft.

We would also like to know when they knew.

The same for the CC companies.

It might be pertinent to ask how many complaints they had received about the unlawfulness of bank/cc charges leading up to the investigation and whom they were made against.

Govt depts are usually good at keeping that kind of stat and i dont see any reason why they wouldnt at least be able to tell how many.

It might also be good to ask what action they took.

I think that this kind of dat is more likley to be availalble since its not 'commercially' sensitive in the way asking about the banks replies could be construed.

Anyway where do we go from here?

Glenn

[Wild Billy]

You're absolutely right about the need to ask smart questions! Too many requests are made that never have any chance of eliciting a response. If I were doing it, I would send the letter below but obviously adapt it as you see fit.

************************* ************************* ***********

Dear Mr Fingleton,

Request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

I am writing to you to request information about the recent investigation into credit card default charges and ongoing investigation into bank charges. This is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and I believe should not be subject to any of the qualified or absolute exemptions.

Investigation into credit card charges

(1) How many OFT staff and/or man-hours were dedicated to the credit card investigation?
(2) On what date was the decision made to begin an investigation into these charges? Who made that decision? Please supply the documentation that confirms this decision, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.
(3) Please explain why the decision was taken to investigate at that particular time. Please supply any documentation you personally received in this regard, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.
(4) On what date did the investigation begin?
(5) How many complaints did the OFT receive about credit card default charges in the 24 months prior to taking the decision to investigate? Please provide this by month or quarter, whichever is easier. If information for that period is not available, please supply the number of complaints over whatever period featured in your consideration.
(6) How many complaints did Consumer Direct receive about credit card default charges in the 24 months prior to taking the decision to investiage. Please provide this by month or quarter, whichever is easier. If information for that period is not available, please supply the number of complaints over whatever period featured in your consideration.
(7) How many complaints have been received by the OFT and Consumer Direct about credit card default charges since the OFT's announcement that £12 is the threshold for action? Of these, how many relate to charges in excess of that threshold?
( The Unfair Contract Terms Regulations place a duty on the OFT to consider complaints it receives so please explain why it did not consider taking action sooner.
(9) Please give dates of meetings held during the course of the investigation and who attended. This is not a request for details of discussions at these meetings.
(10) Please give dates of correspondence between the OFT and those credit card lenders you were consulting with.
(11) Please provide any models used by the OFT to calculate that £12 should be the threshold for action. This is not a request for any information supplied by the credit card lenders to populate the model.

Should you choose to invoke either s35 or s44 of the Freedom of Information Act, this will be challenged. I believe none of the information requested would prejudice policy making and statistical information is not exempt once a decision has been taken. Part 9 of the Enterprise Act is not relevant either as I have not requested any market sensitive information or any information specfic to a particular credit card lender.

Investigation into bank charges

(1) How many OFT staff and/or man-hours have been dedicated to the bank charges investigation?
(2) On what date was the decision made to begin an investigation into these charges? Who made that decision? Please supply the documentation that confirms this decision, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.
(3) Please explain why the decision was taken to investigate at that particular time. Please supply any documentation you personally received in this regard, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.
(4) On what date did the investigation begin?
(5) How many complaints did the OFT receive about bank charges in the 24 months prior to taking the decision to investigate? Please provide this by month or quarter, whichever is easier. If information for that period is not available, please supply the number of complaints over whatever period featured in your consideration.
(6) How many complaints did Consumer Direct receive about bank charges in the 24 months prior to taking the decision to investiage. Please provide this by month or quarter, whichever is easier. If information for that period is not available, please supply the number of complaints over whatever period featured in your consideration.
(7) Please explain why you took the decision not to act on these complaints until now. The Unfair Contract Terms Regulations place a duty on the OFT to consider complaints it receives so please explain why it did not consider taking action sooner.

If you fail to provide the information requested then I will ask for an internal review. If I am unsatisfied with that response then I will make a complaint to the Information Commissioner and ask him to make a Decision Notice requiring the OFT to release the information.

Yours sincerely,

XXXXXXX

************************* ************************* *********

What do you think? I really don't think it is worth going anywhere near asking for figures provided by the banks or asking any question that is anyway specific to a particular lender. I can't believe it will be answered and will only confuse the matter. My concern with my letter above is that it asks a lot of questions and could be exempted as costing too much to provide- don't think it would but you never know so it may be better either split the questions into two separate requests. If that exemption was used then I suppose it could just be resubmitted by someone else in manageable chunks?

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Glenn UK]

I think you made an excellent start, my view is our primary objective is to determine if the banks knew about the investigation prior to the announcement in april 06. So i have made some suggestions feel free to take/reject these proposed chages as you see fit.



1) On what date was the decision made to begin an investigation into these charges? Who made that decision? Please supply the documentation that confirms this decision, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.

2) Please explain why the decision was taken to investigate at that particular time. Please supply any documentation you personally received in this regard, redacting any information that you feel is exempt.

3) On what date did the investigation begin?

4) How many complaints did the OFT receive about credit card default charges in the 24 months prior to taking the decision to investigate? Please provide this by month or quarter, whichever is easier. If information for that period is not available, please supply the number of complaints over whatever period featured in your consideration.

5) How many complaints have been received by the OFT and Consumer Direct about credit card default charges since the OFT's announcement that £12 is the threshold for action? Of these, how many relate to charges in excess of that threshold?

6) Please give dates when the eight credit card companies to take part in the OFT investigation. held during the course of the investigation and who attended. This is not a request for details of discussions at these meetings.

7) Please give dates of correspondence between the OFT and those credit card lenders you were consulting with.

Please provide any models used by the OFT to calculate that £12 should be the threshold for action. This is not a request for any information supplied by the credit card lenders to populate the model. The OFT report has info on this although no data from cc companies

9) Was there any publicity about the issue of your investigation into CC charges prior to, or during the investigation? If so where?

10) Were any presentations given to the House of Commons, MPs, FSA, BBA, or similar bodies before the commencement of the investigation?

Should you choose to invoke either s35 or s44 of the Freedom of Information Act, this will be challenged. I believe none of the information requested would prejudice policy making and statistical information is not exempt once a decision has been taken. Part 9 of the Enterprise Act is not relevant either as I have not requested any market sensitive information or any information specfic to a particular credit card lender.

If you fail to provide the information requested then I will ask for an internal review. If I am unsatisfied with that response then I will make a complaint to the Information Commissioner and ask him to make a Decision Notice requiring the OFT to release the information.

Yours sincerely,


Glenn

[Wild Billy]

Glenn- I just need to be clear about what you are saying. We know the banks knew about the credit card investigation prior to the announcement in April because the OFT has already said it was discussing the issue with them. Isn't that how they reached this £12 threshold? Or am I being stupid here? Paragraph 1.4 makes reference to the analysis being judged on "recoverable costs incurred by eight leading credit card issuers" so I can't see that they didn't know about the investigation. And this press release from July 2005 confirms it:

OFT consults with eight credit card companies on the level of their default charges

So I don't think we need to worry about that too much although you could ask for the identities of the 8 lenders, although we would be careful not to ask what they said. That was really what my question about dates of meetings and attendees was about anyway.

Is that helpful? Perhaps you could put all the questions into an e-mail and send it to John Fingleton making sure to ask for an aknowledgement of receipt. Would guess his e-mail would be john.fingleton@oft.gsi.go v.uk looking at the other e-mail conventions on the OFT website but maybe someone else knows. Good luck!

[Glenn UK]

I am thinking that cc companies and banks may have know signficnalty before the dates of the ofts press release.

I have worked on committees involving the ODPM and it doenst just happen. Theres always a catalyst.

So I am thinking that if there were any commitees set up or anyhitng like that, parliarmentary questions or such like then both the CC companies and the banks are likely to have known.

So perhaps i should alter 10) to inlcude parliamentary questions.

Re email, I will draft out a letter and post it here for comment then send it via recorded delivery and fax probably.


Glenn

[Wild Billy]

How did we get on here?