Information Commissioners Office

[Glenn UK]

Is it worth orchestrating a specifc campaign at the Information Commissioners Office in the light of their recent announcement that they are going to have tea with those nice folks at the Abbey?

I am not thinking simply of a standard mail shot but something more specific. A recent poster put up a link to the Data Protection Act policy of the Natioanl Archives which includes specific reference to microfiche records being included in their relvant filing system.

2.3 Personal information held by The National Archives is subject to the Data Protection Act if it meets the following criteria:

1. • it relates to an identifiable living individual; and
   
2. • it is held electronically, whether in an email, word processed document, spreadsheet or database, or it is held in manual records - paper files, index cards, microfiche etc.

I suggest that if its feasible anyone who has evidence that fiche can or is being treated as a relvant filing system by any organisation posts a note here confriming they have forwarded to the Information Commissioners Office.

Im not too sure what the best format would be and would be happy to hear anyones views.

Im not sure this will have any impact, i am just concerned that without other evidence the Information Commissioners Office will fall on the wrong side of the fence.

Call me suspicous but they have already given an informal view and i do wonder how easy it will be to change that view!

Ill wait a day or so before sending the info i suggest and if anyone has any better ideas or even if you think its a waste of time I would be pleased to hear it.

Glenn

[dave]

I think it's a good idea. I just don't have any evidence.

[Glenn UK]

Dave

Someone could send them the evidence about the charges for providng data on fiche that the banks charges.

IMHO when this is compared with the charges for going overdrawn this seems quite compelling to me in the sense it indicsate the relative ease with whihc specific data about an individual can be collated and produced.

I could do this too, it seemed to me that if the Information Commissioners Office revcevied letters from a range of people providng different evidence or infomration it would have more weight than an 8 page letter from me.

Glenn

[JonCris]

Glenn

Please read my signature. I have received my pre 6years microfiche statements from Abbey supplied without charge. Would it be of any assistance if I where to send you copies of the correspondence together the statements. It clearly indicates that retrieving them was no problem at all

[Niklowe]

Hi,

I fail to understand why Microfiche is not a relevant filing system. On and off all morning I have been searching the web. Even the "International court of justice " in the Hague keeps records on Microfiche. Also half the courts in the UK do as well.

[JonCris]

Nik

Join the club!

[Niklowe]

and this.





Data Protection Act 1998: Standards and Best Practice Handbook for Government Departments: Manual Records

[Glenn UK]

I dont think its a matter of whether microfiche is, or is not relevant per se, its whether a particular system is a 'relevant filing system'.

Suppose the controller of a fiche system throws the fiche in box and then has to rumage through the box to find the right sheet with no index of any sort to work out where a given sheet or record is.

I doubt this would be a relevant filing system.

i am certain that abbey arent doing this.

But, and heres the nub of my concern, the Information Commissioners Office has given informal views i believe sugesting that the abbey system was not a relevant filing system previousely.

Glenn

[JonCris]

Well they found my over 6 year old microfiche statements pretty dam quick So no I don't suppose they are chucking them in a box. Also I think it's safe, no matter what the Information Commissioner eventualy claims. to say that it IS a relevant filing system.

[Glenn UK]

I do agree with you about their system and i do hope ths Information Commissioners Office supports that view, moy nly concern is that life has a funy way of turning out different to the way we expect.

What i will do is write a ltter with the vidence fro the naiotanl archive later, and then ill do one with the charges info in based on their published data and include a reference to your situation JonChris if thats OK?

Its a little effort on my part and if it puts another straw on the abbeys back, then it wont be long before it buckels and gives way.

Cheers

Glenn

[hagenuk]

see below

[hagenuk]

I just found this as I am facing the same problem with Barclaycard.




3. 'Personal Data', 'Relevant Filing Systems' and the Durant case



The Court of Appeal also considered the definition of 'relevant filing system' and held that it was to be more narrowly construed than had been previously advised by TICO. (The Information Commissioner's Office)


A 'relevant filing system' is a "system":

• in which files are structured or referenced so as to clearly indicate at the outset of the search whether specific information capable of amounting to personal data of an individual making a subject access request is held within the system and, if so, in which file or files it is held; and
• which has, as part of its own structure or referencing mechanism, a sufficiently sophisticated and detailed means of readily indicating whether and where in an individual file or files specific criteria or information about the applicant can be readily located.

TICO has now suggested using what it calls the "temp test" to assess manual filing systems. In other words, if an institution employed a reasonably competent temporary administrative assistant, would they be able to extract specific information about an individual without any particular knowledge of the work that the institution does or the documents that it holds, after only a short induction, explanation and/or operating manual on the particular filing system. If a temp could locate the information easily, the information will be held in a relevant filing system. TICO's guidance notes that very few manual files are currently likely to be caught by the Data Protection Act 1998 under this definition.

If the statements can be had for £3 each then I would suggest that the above applies and it is a "relevant filing system."

I think we need to make the banks, Abbey and Barclaycard in particular here, understand that they cannot hide behind this argument any longer. If TICO rule in our favour all well and good, but I would be tempted to agree with Glenn UK here, it seems that their mind is made up.

[Glenn UK]

FWIW

Im a cynical sod who wont believe which way the Information Commissioners Office will ump until their feet touch the ground.

I dont think anyone who subscribes to this forum disagrees what the systems used by the bank are relevant.

Im just concerned that someone at the Information Commissioners Office will be blinded into believing that they arent. I only want to help them come to the right conclusion hence this thread.

Glenn

[JonCris]

ME too

But as an awful lot of people unbeknown to us read this site it's good thing to let the silly buggers know in advance that if they do go the wrong way then there is going to be one hell of a fuss by consumers

People Power!!!!!!!!!!!

[Glenn UK]

Just an update, I have kindly been sent some interesting information from one of our board mmebers and have started to collate the first letter to the Information Commissioners Office.

I am awaiting a response from another board member before completing and sending the letter over the weekend.

I have started to collate a simple list of organisations who deem micrifche as a relevant filing system too.

Once i have colated these i will post so people can see what i have done and comment/rip it apart or whatever.

Glenn

Edit : Small update I have now had the information I was waiting for and will be amending my letter to the Information Commissioners Office. Not sure if they will even read it but at least it will provide evidence as to the Abbeys methods and prove useful to them when they visit.

Second Edit : for those of you who have noticed my posts are full of typos, dont worry i try to remember to spellcheck letters i send out !!