fighting back against northampton bulk cc

[djc]

we have been made aware of the impact of the northampton county court bulk centre with the devastating effect that it has on thousands of people.

The misery and distress can be measured by reading up on our forums of the devastating effect that it inflicts upon our members, the fortunate few that find there way on to our site. But there are literally thousands more that never find our help through ignorance or by not having access to an internet site.

consequently vast numbers of persons are having ccj or other judgements being awarded against them because our legal system is biased towards the claimant and to the detriment of the defender.Because they are considerably disadvantaged by the whole process and lack of understanding of even the most basic of consumer law etc... and all of this comes at a time of considerable stress and embarrasment.

our little grey cells have been contemplating this one sided argument for some time and now offer the following for your consideration and other views that you may hold.

Our suggestion has come from reviewing a large number of posts and they appeared to fall into the old 80/20% rule i.e. (The parento rule).

assuming that our findings were possibly representative of most judgements do you believe that a defendants bulk handling centre could be established to prepare a basic defence for litigants at a modest cost.example really cheap or in certain circumstances nothing( sounds like a new charity is being suggested).

Obviously this may well be way of beam and totally irrevalent to whats really needed but we welcome your views at this stage and just see where it goes.


djc

[sillygirl1]

I think it is entirely relevant - excellent idea - I also think that a rule should be made that if nobody turns up for either side the case is withdrawn completely and cannot be heard - this will make the companies think twice if they have to have a solicitor present at EVERY hearing, there wouldn't be enough solicitors to go around if that were the case.

I think the whole Northampton Bulk Court idea should be left to individuals claiming against individuals and not (ab)used by the likes of Bryan Carter, Capquest et al....

[FunkyFox]

I think it sounds like a useful idea and I have had similar thoughts and discussions with family. The advice from the CAB or CCCS in my experience is always far to general and ineffective. Other services offered by the likes of the Rankines are just focused on debt avoidance which is unpalletable at best. So its a good idea to offer a service that sits between the 2 but I do think there are a number of challenges. Firstly would be getting the service known. As you acknowledge only a tiny number of people with claims against them find their way onto CAG, which is established and very well ranked in google for competitive keywords etc etc. To spread the word across the UK of such a service and generate a brand that people could find and be helped would require masive investment and resource.
Next as already mentioned is the issue of people just wishing to avoid their debts. This is something I find myself morally debating endlessly. How would you decide and diferentiate between those in obvious need and those just keen to get out paying debts. Where do you draw the line and how do you choose. There are definately people on CAG who are using the advice available here, simply to get out of paying. I guess what I am asking is, what would the terms of reference of such a service be.

If you charge for the services (as opposed to being a charity) you would be left open to accusations of being another rankine, but a charity needs lots and lots of funding.

Personally I think perhaps a more realistic propostion would be to consolidate the knowledge available here into a downloadable guide/ebook which people could then access to take some of the strain off the forums. Kind of like a 'dummies guide to dealing with creditors and defending yourself in court - the anarchic version!'

I also think organised lobbying of various groups to try and initiate change using the knowledge, numbers and power on here would perhaps result in faster positive change. For example, with an organised and concerted effort perhaps it would be possible to bring about restrcitions on the use of SD's in the circumstances which they currently seem to be being chucked around like confetti.

I appreciate I have gone off at a tangent from the orginal idea (which I still thiink is a good one) but I can't feel that to essentially set up another CAB type organisation would be quite a challenge.

I'll get back in my box now!

[bigpeterlg22]

i can see from both sides of the fence with regard to the ccbc as I work for a claimant company who works through them and I know people at the ccbc and i do post and read on here and see what misery they bring.
Unfortunately the ccbc is necessary evil. most local courts wouldn't cope with the loading that if the ccbc wasn't there, most local courts are even struggling with the existing loads that they have with them for hearings of one kind or another and some courts are now listing cases into November & December and beyond due to lack of space
From a personal point, I would love the claim pack to be issued by recorded mail rather than just posted out to ensure people actually receive it as I have seen the state of some that have come back from royal mail and speak to quite a few people who either never have had a claim pack or claim they have never received one and am sure royal mail seems to lose quite a few along the way from ccbc to the addresses.
I definitely agree that there should be defence guide and example defences as well as some cheap assistant £5-£10 to deal with specific defences
I think the judiciary and the public as a whole is recognising how much misery certain firms use by just bulking up claims and hoping people are intimidated not to respond/aren't able to respond or don't have the knowlege to respond.

For those of you not aware a new draft general pre-action protocol is being look at for the minute by the civil justice council (http://www.civiljusticecouncil.g ov.uk) and could potential change the claim process as much as the woolfe reforms which under which the legal processes for civil action run today
This may change the way things specifically like debt and disputes are dealt with through the litigation and pre-litigation processreading in between the lines of what is being said by the representatives, they are looking at changing or potentially adding into all pre-action protocol i.e. before you get the claim pack or with when it sent out a option for alternative dispute resolution if you don't want to litigate through the courts

However there is a sting in the tail for those who don't use the alternative dispute resolution as it looks likely they can't claim the costs or can have costs awarded against them.

[questioning]

Thanks very informative Bigpeter, (the link doesn't work for me, think it might be because of the space between gov, easy enought to find though, thanks)

As for the idea put forward in this thread, Great idea, BUT I think the easiest way to get this kind of help would be to open more CAB offices and employ specialist adviser's who could deal with these issues. Most people know to go to CAB for advice, trouble is its so very hard to get an appointment (where i live any way. you have to wait ages for an app.) then its a lucky dip as to whether the adviser really knows their stuff or not.

[citizenB]

Q, the brackets and space that CAG automatically puts in web addresses prevents you from linking via the forum.

It would certainly be good if funding for more CAB offices and qualified staff could be made available. Like you, it is nigh on impossible to get an urgent appointment with my local office. Although I have to say when you do get an appointment they do an excellent job.

[legalpickle]

Whilst I sympathize with all who get CCJ's from Northampton CCBC - and indeed any court - I disagree that the CCBC is in any way biased to Claimants.

Would you say the same if you were chasing a debt via the CCBC? I doubt it.

If you are an individual and file a defence on time, then your claim will be transferred to your local County Court. How it goes beyond then depends entirely on your local County Court and is nothing to do with the CCBC.

The CCBC is a bulk processing centre of claims. It dispatches the claims by post to all parties. If a party doesn't receive a claim and a CCJ is put in default, then that is no more biased than if a CCJ were given in default in any County Court.

I fail to see what your "Campaign" is about. To make a default defence? That would be impossible. There is no default claim. Different people defend for different reasons. If you go through the forums here alone, you will see many reasons for defences, probably one of the most common is the Claimants lack of abiding by the CCA or similar.

The people at fault are not the CCBC, but the debt collectors - who I agree are at fault.

If you are going to make a campaign you must clearly & succinctly detail what your problems are and what you propose should be rectified. If you think the court system is biased then explain why. I have initiated many claims against big companies and individuals alike for a variety of issues, though mainly the former. Never the same as big dca's. I have won and lost and could definitely not say that the court was biased towards me. For my wins I have had to work like a dog to make sure everything was done above board. Unfortunately, I have also lost on occasions and had to look through the reasons and hopefully I have learnt from my mistakes.

Do more claimants in County Court win than defendants? Yes, definitely. But the reason why is simple. If a claimant didn't think they were going to win, they wouldn't issue the claim. If more cases were lost than won, it would mean that those initiating the claims weren't thinking correctly. I have lost a lot less than I have won - and I hope it remains that way. I would be doing something big time wrong if it was in any way different.

In short, I am very interested in this campaign. I am playing devils advocate and don't understand it. If you are convinced you have a valid campaign, I am sure you will get me on board but you will have to explain your reasons for the campaign and what you hope to achieve.

If the reason for the campaign is more judgments in default from Northampton CCBC than any other county court, then the reason is obviously that as they process so many claims at once they are going to have more judgments in default. If you compare all the County Courts in the country, I am sure that overall if you compare those in the same area, the bigger ones will have more claims issued at them and therefore more judgments in default. To me the campaign would be meaningless with this seeming reason and to try and change this would be ridiculous.

I look forward to reading a detailed explanation in the coming days.

[djc]

May i thank you all for your responses and apologise for delay in getting back, but i do value all of your opinions and the time time you have given.

sillygirl1
I like the idea which is if nobody turns up throw the case out of court, but, it's missing my prime objective of ensuring the defendents are aware of how to defend and avoid unsubstantiated increased costs with interest bearing hikes of significant proportions. Most defendants are unaware they can and must challenge the claimants on this point at least. Throwing the case out of court sounds a great idea but possibly needs some point of law change and i am not experienced in that aspect.

funky fox

A lot of your observations and comments are shared by a large number of individuals that enjoy access to this great site.

We particularly agree with your view of "A downloadable guide/ebook which people could access to take some of the strain off the forums". great idea.
But would still miss a lot of defenders.Not sure how to handle that aspect yet.

bigpeterlg22

Excellent piece of work and plenty to get the little grey cells to work at.

1/ CCBC do not appear to check if basic data and clear identification is present in the claim. It would appear that they are oblivious to any form of systemized control, and basic vetting/but they are quite prepared to judge on the flimsyist of data presented to them.

Personnally i do not believe that the judiciary or the general public at large have any idea of the intimidation and actions of the debt collection industry and in particular how there regulated, or lack of it,to the discinct disadvantage of the defendents.

legal pickle

where do i start another great response.

How many defendents do you see posting on our forums that are aware that this initial claim against them is able to be transferred to their local court and what they need to do to get it transferred.Very few, this is the prime reason of this original post to get that point across. Once that basic hurdle has been crossed they must file an acknowledgement of service of the claim and start to prepare a holding defence.


This possible campaign is not about changing views or laws or the way that DCA's etc...go about their business far from it because they provide enormous help to CAG members in providing a clear and defendable case that can be brought against them . Therefore if we can attract greater numbers to be enlightened surely this is our clear objective.

I cannot imagine the percentage of actions taken by DCA's etc.. that result in them being awarded judgement without a fight. could it be 90% we gasp.

Do claimants bring claims to court believing that they have no case.you bet your life they do and win, and why? because they know that possibly 80% will get judgement awarded in there favour, why do you ask? because the defendents are intimidated by the whole process including me and where do they go for help when monies tight? you guessed it CAB or CAg if there lucky.


BE lucky

djc

[legalpickle]

Originally Posted by djc

May i thank you all for your responses and apologise for delay in getting back, but i do value all of your opinions and the time time you have given.

bigpeterlg22

Excellent piece of work and plenty to get the little grey cells to work at.

1/ CCBC do not appear to check if basic data and clear identification is present in the claim. It would appear that they are oblivious to any form of systemized control, and basic vetting/but they are quite prepared to judge on the flimsyist of data presented to them.

Personnally i do not believe that the judiciary or the general public at large have any idea of the intimidation and actions of the debt collection industry and in particular how there regulated, or lack of it,to the discinct disadvantage of the defendents.

legal pickle

where do i start another great response.

How many defendents do you see posting on our forums that are aware that this initial claim against them is able to be transferred to their local court and what they need to do to get it transferred.Very few, this is the prime reason of this original post to get that point across. Once that basic hurdle has been crossed they must file an acknowledgement of service of the claim and start to prepare a holding defence.


This possible campaign is not about changing views or laws or the way that DCA's etc...go about their business far from it because they provide enormous help to CAG members in providing a clear and defendable case that can be brought against them . Therefore if we can attract greater numbers to be enlightened surely this is our clear objective.

I cannot imagine the percentage of actions taken by DCA's etc.. that result in them being awarded judgement without a fight. could it be 90% we gasp.

Do claimants bring claims to court believing that they have no case.you bet your life they do and win, and why? because they know that possibly 80% will get judgement awarded in there favour, why do you ask? because the defendents are intimidated by the whole process including me and where do they go for help when monies tight? you guessed it CAB or CAg if there lucky.


BE lucky

djc

1. In response to your response to "bigpeterlg22". This is not the responsibility of Northampton CCBC or any other County Court. Your campaign with its stated terms as such is therefore irrelevant.

2. In response to your response to me. I repeat, this is nothing to do with the County Court. Some courts have a PSU - Personal Support Unit - to assist individuals at hearings. The Courts are there to deal with claims, nothing else. The intimidation by DCA's against debtors is nothing to do with your "campaign".

Please explain:
1. What exactly you are campaigning against?
2. Who exactly are you campaigning to?
3. What exactly are your proposals?

[JonCris]

I think it may be said that any campaign is to cause the county courts to return to the brief under which they were 1st introduced namely to provide affordable a balanced justice to the ordinary citizen. It was intended that courts would ensure that actions before it held a legal basis on which to be brought.

It was intended that even in the absence of 1 of the of litigants the court would still ensure that the claim was valid. This only appears to occur in the absence of a creditor or DCA. In the case of a LiP failing to attend the court all to often refuses to rule but adjourns to allow the DCA more time a courtesy which is seldom extended to the legally un-sophisticated LiP

The bulk center is doing no more than pandering to the finance industry. as in the face of no help whatsoever except for sites like these most defendants are left high & dry

[legalpickle]

Originally Posted by JonCris

I think it may be said that any campaign is to cause the county courts to return to the brief under which they were 1st introduced namely to provide affordable a balanced justice to the ordinary citizen. It was intended that courts would ensure that actions before it held a legal basis on which to be brought.

It was intended that even in the absence of 1 of the of litigants the court would still ensure that the claim was valid. This only appears to occur in the absence of a creditor or DCA. In the case of a LiP failing to attend the court all to often refuses to rule but adjourns to allow the DCA more time a courtesy which is seldom extended to the legally un-sophisticated LiP

The above has nothing to do with Northampton CCBC and is relevant to all courts across the country. Good luck with such a campaign but the bank charges campaigns haven't been what I would call successful so I seriously doubt such a campaign, taking on all the courts and making allegations that would seriously annoy the court service will be successful.

Originally Posted by JonCris

The bulk center is doing no more than pandering to the finance industry. as in the face of no help whatsoever except for sites like these most defendants are left high & dry

The bulk centre is solely a place to process claims in bulk. Anything beyond that has nothing to do with the bulk centre. It is more administrative than anything else.

Certain claims may be disqualified on technicalities but that would happen in default. This is not a prejudice against anybody. The bulk centre serves to assist anybody issuing a large amount of claims, be it creditors or Solicitors. Unfortunately it's more creditors and DCA's, but that's the way of the world at the moment and nothing to do with the CCBC.

[JonCris]

LP In your opinion the bank charges campaigns have not been successful.

Millions in penalty charges refunds + more being paid as I write

Banks spending millions in legal costs

Banks in high court trying to justify their charges & losing

So just what is your idea of successful??

[JonCris]

The bulk center have many times found for a creditor without any documentation other than an N1

[legalpickle]

Originally Posted by JonCris

LP In your opinion the bank charges campaigns have not been successful.

Millions in penalty charges refunds + more being paid as I write

Banks spending millions in legal costs

Banks in high court trying to justify their charges & losing

So just what is your idea of successful??

My idea of successful - and indeed many others - is a change. Not a technical change in terms and conditions so that they aren't penalties, but a change in behaviour. Without this it isn't successful.

Originally Posted by JonCris

The bulk center have many times found for a creditor without any documentation other than an N1

Did the debtor defend the claim? If not then obviously. A judgment in default is given solely on the basis of no defence. The claim can be the most frivolous and vexatious claim, but no defence submitted within the time necessary will result in a default judgment.

If otherwise, I find that hard to believe. I have sat in on CAB meetings and assisted many people, and know several others who have also assisted many people. Not once - out of several hundred cases in my area that I or somebody I work or deal with has been involved in - has a claim within which a defence has been filed - at any court - not been transferred to their local court - except in error, where the court didn't receive the defence and these were set aside upon application.

The odd court incompetence is inexcusable, but unfor