Consumer Action Group Strategy

[clumch]

You have achieved so much with the bank charges issue.

You need to keep the momentum going!

People get bored if things are slow ...

Now people have a taste for "reclaiming the right" you need to pick a new SINGLE issue and focus on it.

The issue needs to be:

- easy for people to get involved and effect change
- easy for people to understand
- easy for people to agree with

Here is one with universal appeal:

- Council Tax

The only power the citizens of the UK have over the government is TAX.

PAYE is designed to remove our power to choose.

But Council Tax is "unprotected".

For most of the population Council Tax is collected through our old friend "Direct Debit"

We need to organise a single month in which a large number of people cancels their direct debits and simply stops paying council tax.

For people who are frightened of retaliation from the council they can simply pay as late as they dare.

But the system that forces us to pay Council Tax has a very limited capacity - the civil courts - Councils have to pay CASH up front to the courts in order to secure a court date to get a CCJ.

Once a large enough volume of people are in arrears the whole system crashes.

That is what happened with Council Tax #1 "Poll Tax".

What can we achieve?

- panic in the government
- give citizens a sense of power and excitement
- give citizens hope they can reclaim their rights

What can we lose?

- the government will adapt and paying council tax will get harder to avoid

So we need to attach something to the action

- Citizens will start paying Council Tax again once PAYE has become optional and ANY employees can choose Self Assessment

Luckily for us the government has already built a tax infrastructure that supports large numbers of Self Assessment - so it is a perfectly reasonable request.

Once PAYE is optional - pick another SINGLE issue with wide support and use mass witholding of TAX payments as a lever to get more rights.

For instance the Credit History system ...

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

And thanks to the Internet we can have it by simply clicking "Cancel Direct Debit" ...

[Bookworm]

Why on Earth would you want to get rid of PAYE?

It is one of the most useful things ever, and I can assure you that most of the people I speak to in France who have no such thing and instead have to fill in form after form each year, then get charged a "provisional 3rd", then the next year, get charged for the previous tax year, wish they had a system as efficient and fair as PAYE.

My sister is currently working her backside off to clear her debts. As a result, next year, she'll get hit with a big tax bill. So even if she wants to then ease off, she'll have to keep on working more to clear the tax bill, etc, etc...

Most people, especially those on low income and with problems budgetting, know that when they get their wages, that is it, what's left is theirs.

I don't know about others, but there is NO WAY I would ever get involved in a campaign to get rid of PAYE.

As for Council Tax and DD, people have chosen to pay it that way, so I doubt that they'll want to change it, although I quite agree with the evil that is DD and always pay by S/O myself.

[PGH7447]

change council tax, dont vote Labour then

[Bookworm]

Oh yeah, cos the Tories who introduced it the first place would surely get rid of it?

[sequenci]

Originally Posted by clumch

But the system that forces us to pay Council Tax has a very limited capacity - the civil courts

Er, no.

Enforcement of Council Tax is currently via the Magistrates' courts. Non-Payment of the tax is a CRIMINAL offence. The council have the MOST amount of enforcement measures going out of any debt type there is. I really wouldn't advocate doing this at all.

[clumch]

Please read my post carefully.

I am not advocating "getting rid of PAYE" just making it optional.

I am not advocating "getting rid of Council Tax" just using temporary non-payment as a way of uniting citizens into common action to effect changes in PAYE.

As for point regarding magistrates court - that may be true - but they have limited capacity just the same.

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

[PGH7447]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Oh yeah, cos the Tories who introduced it the first place would surely get rid of it?

Yep but at least it wont increase by above inflation rises everyyear for less and less services, of course we can also all pay extra to get our bins emptied in pay and throw and blame it on climate change

[sequenci]

Originally Posted by clumch

As for point regarding magistrates court - that may be true - but they have limited capacity just the same.

There is no 'may' about it. Council Tax enforcement is pretty savage. Some councils are VERY quick to go for enforcment, you must remember that the Local Authorities give us the option of paying the tax in instalments, it's not an automatic right - they could remove this. I wouldn't advocate people messing about with their payments unless they are fully aware of possible consequences, such as having a Liability Order against them + the possible enforcement measues such as Bailiffs, Attachement of Earnings, Bankruptcy and possibly even Imprisonment.

For sure my post is a little OTT but I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

[PGH7447]

For sure my post is a little OTT but I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

Agree there, the installment option is often the only way people can pay this large bill, take that away and most people would end up in court for none payment

[PGH7447]

All we want is a country that is fair and pleasant to live in.

That ended when we started to let the elf and safety brigade tell us what do, along with all the other Rights Brigades that now infest our everyday life.

[clumch]

Originally Posted by sequenci

There is no 'may' about it. Council Tax enforcement is pretty savage. Some councils are VERY quick to go for enforcment, you must remember that the Local Authorities give us the option of paying the tax in instalments, it's not an automatic right - they could remove this. I wouldn't advocate people messing about with their payments unless they are fully aware of possible consequences, such as having a Liability Order against them + the possible enforcement measues such as Bailiffs, Attachement of Earnings, Bankruptcy and possibly even Imprisonment.

But only if they pick on a small number of individuals.

The system can not handle large numbers of simultaneous non-payers.

It simply collapses - a council would bankrupt itself if it tried to take everybody to court - the court does not have the capacity anyway.

The credit history system is the same - if everybody had a CCJ and everybody was defaulted by their bank - the whole system collapses.

These systems only work because they pick on individuals - classic divide and conquer.

Group action renders them instantly powerless.

5 million people cancelling their direct debits and paying as late as is legally possible would send a powerful message "we have had enough - change now"

We need to take advantage of the weakness in the system now before it no longer exists.

Controlling government access to money is the only peaceful way we can improve this country.

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by sequenci

I do feel that if anyone wishes not to pay via d/d then they should pay the full bill when it is due, in April of each year.

Most councils have the ability to pay by BACS nowadays, so there's nothing to stop them changing to S/O instead, still paying by instalments, but being in control in case of issues. A lot of people can't afford to pay over £1000 in one go...

[tomterm8]

it would be incredibly foolish not to pay council tax as a political statement, unless you are willing to go to jail.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Originally Posted by sequenci

Er, no.

Enforcement of Council Tax is currently via the Magistrates' courts. Non-Payment of the tax is a CRIMINAL offence. The council have the MOST amount of enforcement measures going out of any debt type there is. I really wouldn't advocate doing this at all.

Not quite true on two points.

Non payment of council tax is not a criminal offence.

I didn't pay mine last month-I have committed no crime but just simply paid it late which my council accepted.

Should I simply refuse to pay, then be tried and convicted and sent to prison, only then is it a criminal offence.

And HMRC have more power of enforcement for a debt than a council-they, if they had reason to, could raid your house and rip up your floor boards and tear down your walls in less than an hour of deciding to.

A council couldn't.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Originally Posted by tomterm8

it would be incredibly foolish not to pay council tax as a political statement, unless you are willing to go to jail.

</