Cahoot Credit Agreement - Or is it?

[jellybabe]

subbing

[keith4444]

Hi Guys,

I have been doing some reading up on various forums and I found this:

IS MY AGREEMENT ENFORCEABLE( Via section 127(3) CCA1974)
PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1)(0) AND 127(3) OF THE
CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 Taken from sced.6(1983/1553) regulations

**What do we mean by unenforceable?
In the Consumer Credit Act section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information.
Subsections 1,2,3,4 state which pieces of information these are, and everything mentioned there must be included within the body of the agreement, if one is missing the agreement is unenforceable.

How does unenforceable differ from enforceable with a court order only?
When an agreement is unenforceable it means that the court or the judge cannot make a ruling on it. The court cannot make it enforceable.
When an agreement is enforceable only by ruling of the court it means that the agreement can be stopped by the debtor but the court has the power to re-instate it and allow the credit to continue to enforce.**

The Prescribed Terms are these

A Amount of credit
A term stating the amount of credit

B Repayments
A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-
(a) Number of repayments;
(b) Amount of repayments;
(c) Frequency and timing of repayments;
(d) Dates of repayments;
(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

C Rate of interest
A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement
D Credit limit
This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.
--------------------------

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

BC and D Apply

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier
• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.
• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.
• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)
• And there is no advance payment
A is applicable

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement
A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

A and B apply

For a Hire Agreement

B is Applicable

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.
Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreemens executed before that date.

Now if all of that is true then I assume that these Cahoot loans fall into the "fixed sum credit agreement" catergory?
If that is the case the terms A&B apply. Certainly on my document I received back from Cahoot there was only a mention of an "assumed credit limit of £100" and nothing about the amount in question???
Also again there is no cancellation rights prescribed within the "agreement", which is another failiure to comply I'm led to believe?


Any comments on the above guys?

Keith

[angiemcp]

Hi Keith

This was the reason for me starting my fight with Cahoot as their agreement is extremely 'vague'.

Angie

[citocoms]

Originally Posted by keith4444

Hi Guys,

I have been doing some reading up on various forums and I found this:

IS MY AGREEMENT ENFORCEABLE( Via section 127(3) CCA1974)
PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1)(0) AND 127(3) OF THE
CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 Taken from sced.6(1983/1553) regulations

**What do we mean by unenforceable?
In the Consumer Credit Act section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information.
Subsections 1,2,3,4 state which pieces of information these are, and everything mentioned there must be included within the body of the agreement, if one is missing the agreement is unenforceable.

How does unenforceable differ from enforceable with a court order only?
When an agreement is unenforceable it means that the court or the judge cannot make a ruling on it. The court cannot make it enforceable.
When an agreement is enforceable only by ruling of the court it means that the agreement can be stopped by the debtor but the court has the power to re-instate it and allow the credit to continue to enforce.**

The Prescribed Terms are these

A Amount of credit
A term stating the amount of credit

B Repayments
A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-
(a) Number of repayments;
(b) Amount of repayments;
(c) Frequency and timing of repayments;
(d) Dates of repayments;
(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

C Rate of interest
A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement
D Credit limit
This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.
--------------------------

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

BC and D Apply

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier
• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.
• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.
• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)
• And there is no advance payment
A is applicable

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement
A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

A and B apply

For a Hire Agreement

B is Applicable

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.
Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreemens executed before that date.

Now if all of that is true then I assume that these Cahoot loans fall into the "fixed sum credit agreement" catergory?
If that is the case the terms A&B apply. Certainly on my document I received back from Cahoot there was only a mention of an "assumed credit limit of £100" and nothing about the amount in question???
Also again there is no cancellation rights prescribed within the "agreement", which is another failiure to comply I'm led to believe?


Any comments on the above guys?

Keith

Keith surely it falls into the Running Account (Credit Card) Agreement category as it is a Flexible Loan, just like a credit card not a fixed repayments loan.

[citocoms]

A general point or two of interest. I have a copy of the November 2001 Terms and Conditions Booklet that accompanied the 2 sided Agreement (much like the one posted on this thread).

Point of interest one:
The agreement like this one does not contain a Data Protection Clause giving right to process data. Question for Forum Members How signifcant is this? Does it mean Cahoot have no right to process your data?

Point of interest two:
The agreement refers under 'variations' to 'In calculating APR, we have ignored any changes to the interest rate, fees or other charges which we may introduce or vary under the general condition 7 of the cahoot account terms and conditions.'

The actual clause in the T&Cs is clause 8; how significant is that mistake, does it make the agreement Unenforceable, or Enforceable only by a Court Order?

Any other thoughts welcome.

[keith4444]

Hi Citocoms

I think this "Flexible Loan" has similarities with a credit card account (ability to withdraw various amounts up to a limit) BUT when you apply you are applying for a set amount if I remember correctly? Just the same as conventional loans? This is not how you apply for a credit card. This is how I understood they work anyway.

Those other points are interesting though! I would be interested to hear what the Trading standards and FOS think of these?

Also does your agreement have a cancellation clause in it? I understood this was another thing that should be in there?

Let me know what you think

Keith

[citocoms]

Originally Posted by keith4444

Hi Citocoms

I think this "Flexible Loan" has similarities with a credit card account (ability to withdraw various amounts up to a limit) BUT when you apply you are applying for a set amount if I remember correctly? Just the same as conventional loans? This is not how you apply for a credit card. This is how I understood they work anyway.

Those other points are interesting though! I would be interested to hear what the Trading standards and FOS think of these?

Also does your agreement have a cancellation clause in it? I understood this was another thing that should be in there?

Let me know what you think

Keith

Keith this is the bit that confuses me slightly. It has a clause telling you how to settle the agreement, but not specifically a cancellation clause. Above the signing box it states 'The Act also gives you a number of rights. You have a right to settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable uder the agreement.' Not quite a cancellation clause. The start of the document does include a link to a separate booklet of T&Cs, which we have original, which on a brief scan does not appear to include a specific cancellation clause.

Their updated T&Cs contain a cooling off section, section 4.

Is the cancellation clause a 'prescribed condition' which would make the agreement unenforceable, or enforceable by court order only? Also does the cancellation clause only apply if their was oral representation before the agreement?

[keith4444]

Originally Posted by citocoms

Keith this is the bit that confuses me slightly. It has a clause telling you how to settle the agreement, but not specifically a cancellation clause. Above the signing box it states 'The Act also gives you a number of rights. You have a right to settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable uder the agreement.' Not quite a cancellation clause. The start of the document does include a link to a separate booklet of T&Cs, which we have original, which on a brief scan does not appear to include a specific cancellation clause.

Their updated T&Cs contain a cooling off section, section 4.

Is the cancellation clause a 'prescribed condition' which would make the agreement unenforceable, or enforceable by court order only? Also does the cancellation clause only apply if their was oral representation before the agreement?

I'm confused too mate!
It seems that because this is a Flexible Loan it cannot be compared to conventional loans OR credit card agreements, which kind of makes it a law unto itself!!??
I'd like to know what the prescribed terms ARE exactly for this kind of agreement.
Up until now it seems they can do pretty much what they want (hence the interest rates rocketing up to unsustainable levels for most.
I suggest anyone who has this flexible loan and sint happy with the current interest rates/terms then contact the local trading standards or the FOS to lodge a formal complaint. If they get enough of them they might investigate Cahoot formally for ALL their customers.

[citocoms]

Originally Posted by keith4444

I'm confused too mate!
It seems that because this is a Flexible Loan it cannot be compared to conventional loans OR credit card agreements, which kind of makes it a law unto itself!!??
I'd like to know what the prescribed terms ARE exactly for this kind of agreement.
Up until now it seems they can do pretty much what they want (hence the interest rates rocketing up to unsustainable levels for most.
I suggest anyone who has this flexible loan and sint happy with the current interest rates/terms then contact the local trading standards or the FOS to lodge a formal complaint. If they get enough of them they might investigate Cahoot formally for ALL their customers.

Having looked at the legislation I feel it falls under the running-account agreement status, basically the same as a credit card. Legislation extract below:

10

.—(1) For the purposes of this Act—

(a) running-account credit is a facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabed to receive from time to time (whether in his own person, or by another person) from the creditor or a third party cash, goods and services (or any of them) to an amount or value such that, taking into account payments made by or to the credit of the debtor, the credit limit (if any) is not at any time exceeded; and

(b) fixed-sum credit is any other facility under a personal credit agreement whereby the debtor is enabled to receive credit (whether in one amount or by instalments).

[keith4444]

Hmmmm it certainly IS confusing isnt it! (thats probably the whole point!).

How are you going to approach this then Citocoms?

[citocoms]

Originally Posted by keith4444

Hmmmm it certainly IS confusing isnt it! (thats probably the whole point!).

How are you going to approach this then Citocoms?

Keith I have sent the agreement of to be checked by a claims company, via Solicitor, so I will hopefully let you in 2/3 weeks the outcome. I await with interest (probably 'compound' interest, lol). Failing this its down the FOS route, espeicially on the inflated interest hikes, but also the minimum repayment which they varied without any right under the terms of the agreement.

[keith4444]

Hi Citocoms

Sent you a PM

[[JayZ]]

Looks like im in the same boat...

JayZ vs Cahoot CCA

Mines a Cahoot Credit Card CCA and they all look very similar if not the same.

My debt was passed to a DCA so im disputing it with them now.

Watching this thread with interest...

[citocoms]

HELP

Just been told today that (and hopefully my wifes later) Cahoot Credit Card is Unenforceable and they will take it on. So why HELP, the Caims Companies cannot deal with people in Northern Ireland, just England &Wales. Phoned leading Solicitor and advised they do not deal with Unenforceable Credit Cards or Store Cards (same claims company advise my M&S Chargecard Agreement is Unenforceable), they are one of the foremost Solicitors in England that deal with Unenfoceable Agreements.

Help, what do I do now, back against the wall, 2 unenforceable agreements and nowhere to turn to for help, help.

[[JayZ]]

Was it explained why it was unenforcable?

Strange that these companies can wipe debt if its unenforcale, yet when it comes to the joe public we can not...?