lANCASTERCHELSEA V. RBS/business

[lancasterchelsea]

I have received a letter from Cobblers...

ref schedule of charges..."you are claiming £1,500 in interest...under section 69 of county court act... you can only claim 8%...provide a revised schedule....." (paraphrased)

I claimed exactly the same compound rate that they charged me... in other words... the exact interest that they have charged me to date on the penalty charges..

In fact they are sveral months old now, so I need to bring up to date

The period is all well within 6 years

Any suggestions on my response...... at least they are showing some activity

[lancasterchelsea]

CORRECTION........ some of my claim is greater than 6 years

Hedgey ........as I am going to court do I still need to change my POC.... or is this superceded by documents presented at court

If I need to strengthen my claim, how do I do this without going back to the beginning
Big thanks for your help

[hedgey06]

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

I have received a letter from Cobblers...

ref schedule of charges..."you are claiming £1,500 in interest...under section 69 of county court act... you can only claim 8%...provide a revised schedule....." (paraphrased)

I claimed exactly the same compound rate that they charged me... in other words... the exact interest that they have charged me to date on the penalty charges..

In fact they are sveral months old now, so I need to bring up to date

The period is all well within 6 years

Any suggestions on my response...... at least they are showing some activity

Personally, I'd be inclined to amend your schedule of charges to include the 8% s69 interest only. Did you use one of the CAG interest spreadsheets for your original schedule? If not, I'd advise downloading one of the simple versions as they'll calculate the 8% interest on your charges. If only some of the charges are older than 6 years you needn't worry too much - keep them on the schedule as you can include info about statute of limitations in your court bundle.

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

CORRECTION........ some of my claim is greater than 6 years

Hedgey ........as I am going to court do I still need to change my POC.... or is this superceded by documents presented at court

If I need to strengthen my claim, how do I do this without going back to the beginning. Big thanks for your help

You could, in theory, leave your PoC as it is at the moment and see what happens when you get before the DJ. They may request an amended PoC anyway. However, as your original PoC was quite vague (a common problem when filing via MCOL unfortunately) it may be worth amending it before the hearing date. You still have enough time to do this - but if you choose to amend it contact the court office in the morning and explain that you'd like to amend it. They'll be able to advise whether the court date set for the 3rd Jan will need to be postponed to a later date (e.g., the claim will have to be re-served, etc).

Can you post up a link to your PoC so that I can have another look at it please? I can't remember whereabouts on the business claim thread it was!

[lancasterchelsea]

my RBS MCOL POC........... it really is brief isn't it !!!!!!!!!!!


The claimant has held a current account with the defendant, conducted on their
Standard terms and conditions since January 2000, The defendant from
February 2001 to present day has applied charges to the claimant account,
totaling £1020. The bank's charges are a disproportionate penalty and therefore unenforceable. Penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. The claimant has repeatedly asked the bank to refund their charges or offer proof that they are true pre-estimate. They have declined to do so.

The claimant claims £1,020 plus £1421.68 interest, being the sum unlawfully debited

[hedgey06]

It is very brief! I'd be inclined to amend it - which would also give you the chance to include some stuff in your PoC about the pre-6 year charges as well. Plus, I really do think it's a good idea to only go for the 8% interest as well............... the DJ will be much more inclined to award this as opposed to the compounded rate.

[ukaviator]

Just had a quick read. You should have filled in an N1 form when filing with the court. Your POC is too short. I recommend you fill in an N244 form and hand it into the court. It will cost £35 to amend your POC. You can use the Common Law reference not UTCCR in your POC wording.

Use this POC here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...oc-n1-rbs.html

Amend this to suit your needs. Also you should mention the Limitations Act Section 32

• (1) .... where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either-
  • (a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or
  • (b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant; or
  • (c) the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake;
• the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it. ....
• (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, deliberate commission of a breach of duty in circumstances in which it is unlikely to be discovered for some time amounts to deliberate concealment of the facts involved in that breach of duty.

This link will get you the case law on the Limitations to put put into your POC.

Case law relevant to limitations

The amended POC will i think make them give in quite easily, but i may be wrong. It is your choice. The costs alone going over the legal arguments on their side will i think make them pay.

[lancasterchelsea]

will Cobblers attend court ?
or do they tend to settle beforehand???

I have a preliminary in January

[hedgey06]

It's difficult to call this one to be honest hun, particularly as it's a prelim hearing. However, as you filed your claim via MCOL and it's also a business claim, I personally feel there's a good chance that they'll turn up and pick holes in your PoC.

To give your claim the best possible chance, I do think you'll need to change your PoC - I posted up a link to barneybubble's thread on the first page of your thread which shows exactly what to do/how to do it. I really do think your best course of action right now is to bite the bullet and re-do the PoC. x

EDIT: Sorry, meant to add this link earlier! This gives a really good guide to what to expect at the prelim hearing GOT A COURT DATE? A guide to the later stages

[lancasterchelsea]

thanks very much for your advice
I will redo my POC tomorrow
I am reluctant to water down my interest rate though. It is exactly what they have charged me. I have had an overdraft permanently and get charged interest every month on the old charges
obrigado

[hedgey06]

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

I am reluctant to water down my interest rate though. It is exactly what they have charged me. I have had an overdraft permanently and get charged interest every month on the old charges obrigado

You could always leave the interest as it is and give 8% as an alternative. That way, the DJ can award what he/she see's fit to award.

Best of luck re-doing the Poc, give us a 'shout' if you need any help with it. x

[lancasterchelsea]

Hedgey.......... I have filled in N244 partially..... not sure about Part C

will handwritten do ? or is it best typed

Do I attach a new POC as if I was starting again with an N1 is it the
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...oc-n1-rbs.html one ????

I send (or take) 3 copies (of N244 plus new POC) to court with cheque for £35 made out to "the County Court" ????

I can write complex linear programming optimisation systems but this stuff does my head in

thanks

[lancasterchelsea]

the POC http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...oc-n1-rbs.html contains a reference to free banking. As a business customer, I pay fees for each cheque etc

Is this still the right POC for business claims

[hedgey06]

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

N244 ..... not sure about Part C

For Part C, put something along the lines of:

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my Particulars of Claim. (give a brief explaination of why the amendment is needed, ...............e.g., the original Particulars of Claim do not, upon reflection, give sufficient information in support of the claim.)

Please find attached to this application my proposed new Particulars of Claim, as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

will handwritten do ? or is it best typed

It doesn't matter whether you type or handwrite the form to be honest, as long as all the relevant info is included typed or handwritten is fine. But if you download the N244, you can type the info into it and then print 3 copies off. It won't let you save the changes though.

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

Do I attach a new POC as if I was starting again with an N1 is it the http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...oc-n1-rbs.html one ????

You could use this one, but you'd need to remove all references to free banking, UTTCCR, etc. Or, you could use this which is the standard business claim PoC. Either way, don't forget that you'll need to put it onto the N1 form (3 copies of this are also required, plus 3 copies of your schedule of charges).

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

I send (or take) 3 copies (of N244 plus new POC) to court with cheque for £35 made out to "the County Court" ????

I'd be inclined to take it into the Court offices if you possibly can - they'll deal with the paperwork immediately for you. I'm not sure who you make it out to - possibly HMCS? Probably best to give the court a quick ring in the morning to be on the safe side (shows you how long ago I wrote a cheque out!!) Once the Court has your N244 and amended PoC, they'll amend the details, re-seal the claim, return it to you and it is then your responsibility to re-serve it on RBoS. Ensure that you keep a copy of the sealed N1 for yourself too. Once you have served the claim you should send the Court a completed certificate of service which is here along with a copy of the N1 so that the court knows when the bank need to respond.

Originally Posted by lancasterchelsea

I can write complex linear programming optimisation systems but this stuff does my head in

Tell me about it!!! Although I can't write complex linear programming optimisation systems either! Takes a while to get your head round this at first because, let's face it, we're not solicitors, barristers or judges........... although by the time you get to the end of your claim, you'll feel qualified to be one!!!

Keep up the good work hun, you're nearly there now. x

[lancasterchelsea]

Excellent help Hedgey...... thanks very much
I cannot get to the court tomorrow...... I am away all day
hopefully I will take it in on thurs am

[hedgey06]

My pleasure. x