Gandolfi v NatWest

[GaryH]

Hows it going? Any developments?

[gandolfi]

Originally Posted by GaryH

Hows it going? Any developments?

Hi GaryH (and everybody else)
Sorry for the delay in responding (madly busy at the moment!). Hope you're all well!!

I'm only just getting around to replying to Cobbetts miserly offer. I'd really appreciate any comments/amendments to my letter below.....


"Response to Settlement Offer

In the ******** County Court – Gandolfi v National Westminster Bank
Claim No: *******

Dear ********
Thank you for your letter dated ****** 2008. Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding. I was surprised to receive this communication from Cobbetts as neither the Court nor myself had been provided with form N434 'Notice of Change of Solicitor'. I would therefore be grateful if you would confirm that "*other solicitors*" are no longer representing National Westminster Bank and that all communication in this case should be directed to Cobbetts.

Furthermore, I note that your letter refers only to Account No: *BUSINESS* despite my Counterclaim also including Account No: *PERSONAL*. Before closing account no: *PERSONAL*, your client transferred the credit balance of that account to Account No: *BUSINESS* – thus combining the two accounts. As directed by the Judge at the previous Application Hearing, my Counterclaim includes claims on both accounts, as detailed in my Particulars of Claim.

I respectfully decline your offer of c.£3500 as settlement of my claim. This offer is wholly inadequate considering the amounts in question. My claim including accruing interest is now c.£26,000, plus Court costs of £360. I have attached a copy of the schedules of charges and interest, detailing the amounts claimed for your records.

Regarding your reference to the Limitation of Actions, I respectfully draw your attention to paragraph **-** of my particulars of Counterclaim, which clearly outlines the basis of my claim against your client by invoking section.32 (1)(b) and (c) of the Limitations Act 1980. Furthermore, these accounts were in dispute from ** April 2007. My ability to file a Counterclaim after that date was frustrated and delayed until January 2008 because of your client's failure to comply with Subject Access Requests and a CPR18 Request for information regarding the charges on my accounts. The period you refer to between January 2002 and January 2008 is therefore completely inappropriate in this case.

Furthermore, despite my previous requests, your client has still not supplied me with:
a) A true copy of any Default notices in respect of the above account.
b) A copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in place when I opened my account(s) and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions.
Once again, I request that you provide this information by return. Failure to provide this information will be brought to the Court's attention at any future hearing.


This claim will therefore continue until payment of £26,000 is made in full and final settlement.

I trust this clarifies my position.

Yours Faithfully,


Gandolfi"

Is this OK do you think????

They are claiming £4000 from me - should I knock that off the total as an offer of settlement...? There is a chance that their claim could be wholly struck out in Court because they haven't supplied the paperwork requested (default notices referred to in their POC etc) so I want to hold onto it for later negotiations if necessary.

I'd like to be able to post this tomorrow if possible.....I've left it far too long (although the case is stayed at the moment anyway).

Many thanks and best wishes,
Gandolfi

[steven4064]

I wouldn't knock the £4k off at this point. Also, your last senetnce "THis claim..." should also include court costs. IMHO the chance of Cobbetts letting this get to court are extremely slim. You have the £4k to play with in settling out of court.

[gandolfi]

Hello All
I'm really worried that the result of the OFT case (and the judge's comments regarding Common Law) have completely ruined my chances of getting my money back from NatWest. As mine is a business account claim, how seriously do you think this will affect my case?

Gandolfi

[GuidoT]

I have real concerns about business claims, in particular on the fast track and the exposure to the other sides costs.

I am having some difficulties with this site today so I cannot go back over your thread to check, but if I recall correctly you are on the fast track and therefore have exposure to costs.

There is a prospect that the banks will appeal the part they lost and the OFT should then appeal the penalties part.

I just think for now you need to sit tight and see how things unfold. We should be able to give you some more definitive advice soon.

[gandolfi]

Originally Posted by GuidoT

I have real concerns about business claims, in particular on the fast track and the exposure to the other sides costs.

I am having some difficulties with this site today so I cannot go back over your thread to check, but if I recall correctly you are on the fast track and therefore have exposure to costs.

There is a prospect that the banks will appeal the part they lost and the OFT should then appeal the penalties part.

I just think for now you need to sit tight and see how things unfold. We should be able to give you some more definitive advice soon.

Scary times....

No celebrations in this house tonight.

I based my claim on the fact that the charges were penalties in common law, and distanced myself from the UTCCR. My counterclaim was for +/-£25,000 so this is big stuff for me. Don't know what I'll do if the case falls flat.

Will be watching with some distress. Why has the whole test case project completely side-stepped the injustices felt by small business customers who have been crushed by the bank's unfair charges? It's all so unfair.

Thanks for still being there GuidoT.
All best,
Gandolfi

[gandolfi]

Hello All
I'm going to ask for my thread to be moved to the new Business Claims forum, so this will be the first post there.

My battles with NatWest have been going on for over a year now and my thread is pretty long, so I will give a brief(ish) summary for anyone who isn't familiar with what has happened so far.

After summarising the case so far, I have a couple of important questions to ask which I hope you'll be able to help me with.

OK, here goes with the summary.....

1) Last April, NatWest took me to Court for unpayed business loan and overdraft, total of their claim c£15,000.

2) NatWest failed to respond adequately to CPR18 request for information and couldn't provide paperwork for the loan. This hindered my preparation of a Counterclaim for Unfair Bank Charges.

3) At an application hearing, the Judge struck out the part of their claim relating to the loan (c£10,000). The Judge wouldn't strike out the rest, but instead insisted that I submit a Counterclaim that included both my business and personal claims for unfair charges.

4) Upon submission of my counterclaim for c£20,000 (Business sole trader) and c£4,000 (Personal) - for a period between 1990-2007 - the Judge stayed the case pending the OFT Test Case.

5) It might be worth noting that at the time of the original build up of the debt, NatWest moved funds from my Personal account into my Business account (thus connecting them?) and closed the personal account. They continue to charge interest on the Business o'd at 29.5%

6) The OFT judgement has shaken the foundations of my case when I thought it might be near a successful ending. I distanced myself from UTCCR because the majority of my claim was for a business account - relying instead on the 'penalty at Common Law' argument.

I now need to find a way forward in light of the OFT case Judge's rulings.....

************************* ************************* **

OK, here are the questions that I hope you can help me with....

1) I received a letter from Cobbets stating that they are unwilling to provide further documentation (T&Cs etc) until stay is lifted and that they will be provided on Disclosure. Can I push them on this? The outstanding documentation could help me get the stay lifted (if that is a good idea at the moment..?).

2) Also in their letter, they query the schedule of charges, saying that the account balance at interest date does not correspond with the figures on the statements. This is because it is impossible to give a completely accurate impression of the amount that interest is charged upon over the interest period without access to their software (it is necessarily estimated to what I believe is a fair representation of the average balance for the period). How do I defend this?

3) They also query a number of items that they claim to have refunded. (I missed this in the statements, but there are only a couple). How should I respond?

4) They also query interest amounts that I have included from Business Development Loans. These loans were necessary only because of the excessive charges they took from my account. At the time I took the loans out, the charges amounted to more than the loan figures. They want me to clarify on what basis I am claiming these interest amounts...what should I reply?

5) Finally, if I were to pursue the lifting of the stay, could I use Disclosure as a way of putting them on the spot re: charges/costs etc? Could I demand that they Disclose the true nature of their costs?

Thanks for reading this lengthy post - I've been absent for a while and need to get up to speed again post-OFT. Your help will be very much-appreciated! Any advice on how I might shift the emphasis of my claim in light of the OFT case ruling would be welcomed.

Meanwhile, thanks and very best wishes

Gandolfi

[GuidoT]

I will arrange to have this moved to the business forum.

[photoman]

Subscribing.

Looks as though you already have some very knowledgeable peeps looking in and helping you out. They are probably in a better position to offer you sound advice than I, but, I Will have a think regards some of your questions, and perhaps throw in my own tuppence worth.

PM

[gandolfi]

Originally Posted by photoman

Subscribing.

Looks as though you already have some very knowledgeable peeps looking in and helping you out. They are probably in a better position to offer you sound advice than I, but, I Will have a think regards some of your questions, and perhaps throw in my own tuppence worth.

PM

Thanks Photoman, and welcome to the thread - the 'let's join forces' thread has been hugely helpful to me over the course of all this, so it's great to have you on board!

Thanks also to GuidoT and steven4064 for moving the thread to the business forum.

My main objective at the moment is to find some way of moving forward post-OFT. Like everyone else, I'm awaiting the judgement on historic T&Cs. But getting more and more concerned that the 'no penalties' ruling has scuppered my chances of getting my money back...

In the meantime, is there any way I can take advantage of the following to strengthen my case:

1) Part of my case (for personal current account charges) is covered by UTCCR?

2) The bank took money from my personal account to clear amounts on the business account (effectively amalgamating the two accounts)?

3) I am a sole trader

4) The amounts claimed (c.£24,000) allow me to demand disclosure

Any thoughts and advice much-appreciated.

Cheers,
Gandolfi

[gandolfi]

Originally Posted by gandolfi

Hello All
I'm going to ask for my thread to be moved to the new Business Claims forum, so this will be the first post there.

My battles with NatWest have been going on for over a year now and my thread is pretty long, so I will give a brief(ish) summary for anyone who isn't familiar with what has happened so far.

After summarising the case so far, I have a couple of important questions to ask which I hope you'll be able to help me with.

OK, here goes with the summary.....

1) Last April, NatWest took me to Court for unpayed business loan and overdraft, total of their claim c£15,000.

2) NatWest failed to respond adequately to CPR18 request for information and couldn't provide paperwork for the loan. This hindered my preparation of a Counterclaim for Unfair Bank Charges.

3) At an application hearing, the Judge struck out the part of their claim relating to the loan (c£10,000). The Judge wouldn't strike out the rest, but instead insisted that I submit a Counterclaim that included both my business and personal claims for unfair charges.

4) Upon submission of my counterclaim for c£20,000 (Business sole trader) and c£4,000 (Personal) - for a period between 1990-2007 - the Judge stayed the case pending the OFT Test Case.

5) It might be worth noting that at the time of the original build up of the debt, NatWest moved funds from my Personal account into my Business account (thus connecting them?) and closed the personal account. They continue to charge interest on the Business o'd at 29.5%

6) The OFT judgement has shaken the foundations of my case when I thought it might be near a successful ending. I distanced myself from UTCCR because the majority of my claim was for a business account - relying instead on the 'penalty at Common Law' argument.

I now need to find a way forward in light of the OFT case Judge's rulings.....

************************* ************************* **

OK, here are the questions that I hope you can help me with....

1) I received a letter from Cobbets stating that they are unwilling to provide further documentation (T&Cs etc) until stay is lifted and that they will be provided on Disclosure. Can I push them on this? The outstanding documentation could help me get the stay lifted (if that is a good idea at the moment..?).

2) Also in their letter, they query the schedule of charges, saying that the account balance at interest date does not correspond with the figures on the statements. This is because it is impossible to give a completely accurate impression of the amount that interest is charged upon over the interest period without access to their software (it is necessarily estimated to what I believe is a fair representation of the average balance for the period). How do I defend this?

3) They also query a number of items that they claim to have refunded. (I missed this in the statements, but there are only a couple). How should I respond?

4) They also query interest amounts that I have included from Business Development Loans. These loans were necessary only because of the excessive charges they took from my account. At the time I took the loans out, the charges amounted to more than the loan figures. They want me to clarify on what basis I am claiming these interest amounts...what should I reply?

5) Finally, if I were to pursue the lifting of the stay, could I use Disclosure as a way of putting them on the spot re: charges/costs etc? Could I demand that they Disclose the true nature of their costs?

Thanks for reading this lengthy post - I've been absent for a while and need to get up to speed again post-OFT. Your help will be very much-appreciated! Any advice on how I might shift the emphasis of my claim in light of the OFT case ruling would be welcomed.

Meanwhile, thanks and very best wishes

Gandolfi

bump...

I just want to flag these questions up again as all was quiet when I posted them a while ago. I've had a reminder from Cobbetts to respond to their questions and don't know what to do...

If anyone can help I'd really appreciate it.

Many thanks,
Gandolfi

PS - Anyone know where GaryH is? He has helped a lot in the past, but hasn't been around recently.

[GuidoT]

This is a bit out of my field experience, but I have raised it with other members of the site team, so hopefully someone will help.

Even in light of the test case (which should not have related to business accounts) the banks are still settling business claims, demonstrating that they are not altogether happy defending their position. I have seen a few lately.

[MARTIN3030]

There are some hurdles here and yet those familiar with Cobbetts as an RBS claimant will know some of their tacs.
Did you request the terms and conditions under the consumer credit act ? Theres some interesting things in the newer 2008 regs.
The points 2 and 3 maybe can be dealt with out too much problems.
Point 4 is interesting-can you show with clarity that the loan was used or reconciled to address charges ? I recall one claimant using this in his defence I will try and remember who it was-he ended up getting it paid back.
Point 5 -The application on notice to remove the stay will obviously need to be supported by submissions that would have to be considered.....Given the defences question on limitation maybe there could be something there-the banks have shown resiliance to go down the limitation act on its own (see Lancasterchelseas thread)
However theres the dangers with costs outside SC its a risk...thats been highlighted.
Its a case of putting something together that - like you say allows the stay.You really could do with getting these terms and conditions-have you looked elsewhere to try to get a copy of them ?


I just remembered the OP I mentioned-it was empirestrikesback.

[photoman]

Some comments of my own.

Originally Posted by gandolfi

Hello All
I'm going to ask for my thread to be moved to the new Business Claims forum, so this will be the first post there.

My battles with NatWest have been going on for over a year now and my thread is pretty long, so I will give a brief(ish) summary for anyone who isn't familiar with what has happened so far.

After summarising the case so far, I have a couple of important questions to ask which I hope you'll be able to help me with.

OK, here goes with the summary.....

1) Last April, NatWest took me to Court for unpayed business loan and overdraft, total of their claim c£15,000.

2) NatWest failed to respond adequately to CPR18 request for information and couldn't provide paperwork for the loan. This hindered my preparation of a Counterclaim for Unfair Bank Charges.

3) At an application hearing, the Judge struck out the part of their claim relating to the loan (c£10,000). The Judge wouldn't strike out the rest, but instead insisted that I submit a Counterclaim that included both my business and personal claims for unfair charges.

4) Upon submission of my counterclaim for c£20,000 (Business sole trader) and c£4,000 (Personal) - for a period between 1990-2007 - the Judge stayed the case pending the OFT Test Case.

5) It might be worth noting that at the time of the original build up of the debt, NatWest moved funds from my Personal account into my Business account (thus connecting them?) and closed the personal account. They continue to charge interest on the Business o'd at 29.5%

6) The OFT judgement has shaken the foundations of my case when I thought it might be near a successful ending. I distanced myself from UTCCR because the majority of my claim was for a business account - relying instead on the 'penalty at Common Law' argument.

I now need to find a way forward in light of the OFT case Judge's rulings.....

************************* ************************* **

OK, here are the questions that I hope you can help me with....

1) I received a letter from Cobbets stating that they are unwilling to provide further documentation (T&Cs etc) until stay is lifted and that they will be provided on Disclosure. Can I push them on this? The outstanding documentation could help me get the stay lifted (if that is a good idea at the moment..?).Did you request the T&C's under a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act, or did you request them under a directions request or call for disclosure? Strictly speaking the T&C's are not personal data, so don't come under the Data Protection Act, however it may be possible to argue that as they are pertinent and relevant to how your account was governed, then they should be covered by the Data Protection Act? Any other information such as loan agreements, letters sent at the time of charges etc are indeed covered by the DPA, and if they do not provide them under your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) then they are in breach of your request. This failure has nothing at all to do with the current OFT court case, and any current stays in such cannot be used as cause to withhold such information. You can file a separate court action for SAR non compliance if they fail provide such.

2) Also in their letter, they query the schedule of charges, saying that the account balance at interest date does not correspond with the figures on the statements. This is because it is impossible to give a completely accurate impression of the amount that interest is charged upon over the interest period without access to their software (it is necessarily estimated to what I believe is a fair representation of the average balance for the period). How do I defend this?IMHO, I would write to them, and copy to the court explaining your reasoning and method of calculations, and ask them to provide the actual balances on the interest dates they are querying, and to provide you with a full breakdown of how they calculated interest over the period. IMHO, I would not be too concerned about this, as you have made a reasonable lay persons effort to calculate such sums and the court would agree that you have done such. Again, if they want to query or contest this, then they will have to provide disclosure

3) They also query a number of items that they claim to have refunded. (I missed this in the statements, but there are only a couple). How should I respond?Write to them, thanking them for pointing out such items and provide them with an amended schedule of charges whilst also submitting an amendment to the court.

4) They also query interest amounts that I have included from Business Development Loans. These loans were necessary only because of the excessive charges they took from my account. At the time I took the loans out, the charges amounted to more than the loan figures. They want me to clarify on what basis I am claiming these interest amounts...what should I reply?Can you demonstrate that at the times that the loans were taken out the prior charges and interest upon up to loan date were near to or exceeded the sums of the loans?

5) Finally, if I were to pursue the lifting of the stay, could I use Disclosure as a way of putting them on the spot re: charges/costs etc? Could I demand that they Disclose the true nature of their costs?Yes, if your case is heading for a court other than SCT you can request full disclosure. There are several threads and templates dealing with this

Thanks for reading this lengthy post - I've been absent for a while and need to get up to speed again post-OFT. Your help will be very much-appreciated! Any advice on how I might shift the emphasis of my claim in light of the OFT case ruling would be welcomed.

Meanwhile, thanks and very best wishes

Gandolfi