consumer forums consumerforums Total Bank Charges Returned : £16595128 to 9717 people. The Consumer Forums  
Bank Charges Refunds Survey | 'Buddy' System | Get an email address | Site Map | Registration Problems | FAQ
CAG Products - We think that these will help you to make your claim or Reclaim your Right

These sales also help us to keep helping YOU and keeps this site free of third party adverts!

Small Claims Kit-- Small Claims Court Guide
**New Edition**
CallBurner - Skype
CallRecorder Review
Last Will & Testament Kit Fight a Motoring Ticket
 
Alternatively you could purchase a CAG email address here, or maybe you'd prefer our address labels here


UPDATE: Consumer Forums ConsumerWiki is now LIVE - click here: ConsumerWiki


Consumer Action Group envelope labels
You are part of a community of over 195,000 people.
Let your bank know that you won't give in.
Display one of our labels on your envelopes.
Full description here
Sheet of 20 self-adhesive envelope labels
£3.50 inc p&p





Reclaim the Right!
The Lawpack Small Claims Kit contains everything you need to get your bank charges refund. Sample forms, Instruction manual, template forms and an entire set of court forms in .PDF format on CDRom.

Just type in the details of your claim and print them out.


Reclaim the Right!


Sue your bank as often as you like with one Lawpack!!

With a Lawpack and Patricia Pearl’s book on Small Claims, you have everything you need to get your unfair bank charges refunded or assert other consumer rights.
(England & Wales only)

CAG Forum Users Price £11.99
(click image to buy)
Plus £1 P&P



Reclaim the Right!


New Edition
Small Claims Procedure by Judge Patricia Pearl
An excellent guide for the layperson
Not for use in Scotland
Read BF's Review Here




Stand up to Telephone Harassment

If you use Skype -
Record your phone calls with CallBurner
It's Hot!

Click below to download your
14 day trial copy
CallBurner
Skype CallRecorder download


Read the
Explanation and review here
£31.96 - includes 20% CAG discount
(normally £39.95)

We've managed to negotiate a discount for CAG Users on DIY 'Willpacks'


Click on the image to purchase a Wills kit - £12.99 + £1.00 pp

Remember...you can't take your reclaimed bank charges with you ;-)



The new Consumer Directory
search the web, shop online, looking for gift ideas?
Reclaim the Right Ltd. - reg.05783665 in the UK
reg. office:- 923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE
The new Consumer Directory
search the web, shop online, looking for gift ideas?

  CAG Announcements
 
Welcome Guest
Please register
Registration is free
There are no charges for using any of the facilities of this website.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. You will have to register before you can post. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
You will also have to register to access our template letters and claims forms
registration is free
Are you being threatened over debts more than 6 years old?
This may be unfair
See our new Unfair Trading Guide
Bought an extended warranty?
Not satisfied?
The warranty may be an example of unfair trading
See our new Unfair Trading Guide
Have you been defaulted?
Would you like to clean up your credit file?
Check it out
Hold the Front Page!!
News updates
The Consumer Forums front page
Have you been defaulted?
Would you like to clean up your credit file?
Check it out
 
Bank Action Group Debt Action Group
 

Go Back   The Consumer Forums > The Consumer Forums
The Bank Action Group - against unlawful bank charges
> General > Business claims for bank charges

Business claims for bank charges Claims by businesses for the return of bank charges may pose special problems. Discuss your problems here.


Welcome to The Consumer Action Group

and
The Bank Action Group


Before beginning to claim your bank charges be sure to read the FAQ by clicking the link above. Read it carefully and also read as much of the forum material as you can manage before you start claiming your bank charges refund. You will have to register before you can post or view the materials which may assist you in reclaiming your penalty charges: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. Understand what you are doing and you will be able to Reclaim the Right more effectively.

Why don't you come and introduce yourself in the Welcome section at the top of the forum. Then have a look around the rest of it.
Do not post or start claiming until you have read the entire FAQ section and step by step guides and you have a good basic idea of what to do and of the layout of the forum.
Good luck claiming your bank charges.
We strongly suggest that you register under a UserID and not your own name

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 30th August 2007, 21:14   #121 (permalink)
Wally
Basic Account Customer
 


I am in: Anywhere thats hot and sunny
Posts: 113
Wally Novitiate
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest - how to respond to Reinstatement application?

Hi Gandolfi
Thanks for your reply. I may be a bit dim but I want to do as you suggested and start a thread but I'm not sure how to do it. Can you give me any help.
Once I have done this I will explain everything that has been going on with the NatWest over the past 5 years.
It is similar to your situation and any help will be very gratefully received.
Many thanks
Wally
Wally is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 30th August 2007, 21:23   #122 (permalink)
GuidoT
Site Team
 
GuidoT's Avatar
 


I am in: London
Posts: 3,628
GuidoT has disabled reputation
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Wally, this is a good link to follow on how to use the site:
"How do I...?" A Dummies' Guide to this Forum
GuidoT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2007, 10:33   #123 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest - GaryH please help if you are there...?

Hi everyone

GaryH, I tried to PM you, but your inbox was full....hoping you'll be see this instead. I realise you must be inundated with requests for help - but I'm hoping you'll be able to help me take appropriate action in response to the following points:

a) NatWest's application a week ago to reinstate their claim against me (after it was struck out)

b) Their request for a stay within that application (even though I haven't yet had the opportunity to submit a detailed Defence and Counterclaim....and it is a Business Account!)

c) Stuart Higley's letter saying that my claim for charges beyond six years is time barred by the Limitations Act

How should I respond? Hope you can help.

Many thanks and best wishes,
Gandolfi
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2007, 16:36   #124 (permalink)
Paintball
Platinum Account Customer
 
Paintball's Avatar
 


I am in: World of PPI.
Posts: 1,899
Paintball Highly informativePaintball Highly informativePaintball Highly informativePaintball Highly informativePaintball Highly informativePaintball Highly informative
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Hi Gandolfi

Sorry you seem to be stuck with this. Anyway, I'm no expert but here is some input from me. I understand that this is for a business account but I see the issues as being the same as per a personal account.

a) and b) Would you be able to write to the Court and ask to the Judge for your stay to remain in place? I am sure there must be a Template letter for this.

c) With my own NatWest credit card claim, the RBS Litigation Team sent me a letter telling me that my claim was not legal as my charges fell outside the 6 year limit. I said b*******s to that and sent a letter invoking a postponement of the limitation period under Section 32 1(b) of the Limitation Act 1980 on the grounds of concealment of the true nature of the Bank's charges, ie, that they do not truly reflect their losses but unduly enrich the Bank!! I will send you this letter for you to modify for your own use if you like - let me know.

As to obtaining your documents, as this is a live account I think a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office will be a good start as your Bank is clearly in breach of the Data Protection Act. If the Court will not allow your request for a stay, then you can request your documents Pursuant to Pre-Action Protocol 4.6(c) of the Civil Procedure Rules. Again, I can let you have the letter for this if you like.

HTH and don't give up Painty x x
Paintball is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2007, 16:40   #125 (permalink)
GuidoT
Site Team
 
GuidoT's Avatar
 


I am in: London
Posts: 3,628
GuidoT has disabled reputation
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

G - you are not forgotten, a call out to GaryH has been made.
GuidoT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2007, 19:01   #126 (permalink)
GaryH
Site Team
 
GaryH's Avatar
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Sorry, I haven't deserted you - been on and off line recently and I haven't had a great deal of time.

Now where were we..... let me have a look and I'll get back to you later or first thing tomorrow (promise!)
GaryH is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2007, 22:31   #127 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryH View Post
Sorry, I haven't deserted you - been on and off line recently and I haven't had a great deal of time.

Now where were we..... let me have a look and I'll get back to you later or first thing tomorrow (promise!)
Great! Thanks GaryH Good to hear from you!!
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2007, 14:34   #128 (permalink)
GaryH
Site Team
 
GaryH's Avatar
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Right, ok. Well personally I think you should oppose the reinstatment, although to be honest I think its likely that they will get it.

You could oppose it first and foremost but request that if the court does accede to the application there are conditional orders attached to the reinstatement. The conditions would be these;

1) That the stay is denied on the grounds that the charges were made on a business account

2) That the claimant is ordered to comply with the defendant's part 18 request within 14 days and in default the claim be struck out.

3) Upon compliance with 2) the defendant to file an amended defence and counterclaim.

4) Claimant to file its response 14 days from date of service of counterclaim.

You can write a witness statement in response to their application if you like, although you will probably have to attend an application hearing as well anyway, which is likely to take the form of a case management conference if they do get their reinstatement.

In the witness statement you should write a concise case summary including the problems you have had getting information out of them and your objections to the reinstatement and the proposal of a stay, etc. State that they are represented by specialist solicitors and had adequete time to file the AQ, plus they ignored an unless order. You can add a bit about their conduct in other claims as well if you like - repeatedly breaching orders, defending then settling at the last minute, etc.

Obviously you need to have a section relating to the proposed stay and under it establish the distinction between personal accounts and business accounts as well as any other objections.

Also point out that you cannot prepare a defence and counterclaim until they provide the requested information, and that bank charges are not the only grounds upon which you dispute the debt. State that you do not acknowledge the loan and despite your repeated requests they still have not produced a copy of the credit agreement to substantiate their assertion that money is owed under it.

Finally at the end add a section called 'In the alternative' with the orders you request are made if the court is minded to reinstate the claim.

Ignore Higley's letter. You can plead your case for the pre-6 year charges in your POC, or C/C, whichever it turns out to be.

HTH, if you have any questions give me a shout.

Last edited by GaryH; 2nd September 2007 at 17:44.
GaryH is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2007, 14:40   #129 (permalink)
GaryH
Site Team
 
GaryH's Avatar
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Sorry - is the loan a business or personal one?
GaryH is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2007, 15:18   #130 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryH View Post
Sorry - is the loan a business or personal one?
As far as I know, it is a business loan - the payments and interest were automatically debited from my business account. I was a sole trader, so it was in my name.

Thanks so much for your advice, above. I will get to work on it straightaway. A lot to do.

Best,
Gandolfi
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2007, 17:46   #131 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest - Urgent help needed!!! Order/Hearing

It's been ages since I last posted -I've moved house and changed job, so all is upside-down.

There have been some dramatic developments though. NatWest's case against me was struck out months ago. However, they applied for reinstatement and a stay of the case, which they got.

I applied for the reinstatement/stay order to be set aside on the grounds that the bank had refused to respond to my CPR 18 request, had failed to submit their AQ and had frustrated my attempts to make an amended defence and counterclaim by not supplying the requested information. I challenged the stay on the grounds that it is a business account and therefore not relevant to the test case, as well as the other points about the unfairness of positions between the bank and myself etc.

The Court dismissed my application to remove the stay, but have granted a hearing for my application to set aside the reinstatement (on 30th November).

Unfortunately, my application was submitted late and the Court has requested that I file and serve (what does this mean?) a written statement to account for the delay.

The reason for the delay is that I have waited months since the claim was struck out to hear anything and then the order to respond to the reinstatement arrived while I was away (I am currently working away from home).

What should I write in the statement???? (I have to get it there for Friday!)

How should I prepare for the hearing????

All advice gratefully received. If anyone can flag this up to Gary H I'd be very grateful.

Thank you!!!
Gandolfi
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2007, 18:23   #132 (permalink)
steven4064
Site Team
 
steven4064's Avatar
 


I am in: Lancashire
Posts: 9,795
steven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritativesteven4064 Authoritative
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Just write what you said here. File and serve means send it to the court and to the defendant - make sure you include the calim number.
steven4064 is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2007, 21:43   #133 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven4064 View Post
Just write what you said here. File and serve means send it to the court and to the defendant - make sure you include the calim number.
Thanks steven4064!

Do you have any ideas about how to handle the hearing...?
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2007, 21:55   #134 (permalink)
GaryH
Site Team
 
GaryH's Avatar
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Quote:
I've moved house and changed job, so all is upside-down.
I know how you feel my friend - me too!

For the witness statement just put all your arguments and points down on paper, everything you think is relevant, as per my post above. Don't worry about presentation or trying to make it sound or look legal or anything like that - just get your arguments down on paper. Once you've done that I'll go over it with you if you like and tighten it up and add anything else thats relevant, etc.

Try to get it done asap and you can serve it in advance and also perhaps make them an offer to settle at the same time. If they can see you have a good chance of success (which you do) then they'll probably be amenable to a reasonable settlement offer.
GaryH is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2007, 00:56   #135 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Re: Gandolfi v NatWest

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryH View Post
I know how you feel my friend - me too!

For the witness statement just put all your arguments and points down on paper, everything you think is relevant, as per my post above. Don't worry about presentation or trying to make it sound or look legal or anything like that - just get your arguments down on paper. Once you've done that I'll go over it with you if you like and tighten it up and add anything else thats relevant, etc.

Try to get it done asap and you can serve it in advance and also perhaps make them an offer to settle at the same time. If they can see you have a good chance of success (which you do) then they'll probably be amenable to a reasonable settlement offer.
GaryH
Great to hear from you! Hope the house move hasn't been too stressful!

The hearing is just for my application to set aside the reinstatement - not for the entire case.

I was going to argue against the reinstatement by pointing out the bank's total lack of co-operation with CPR18 etc.

Will the hearing also be a place for me to argue the merits of the entire case?

Thanks!
Gandolfi
gandolfi is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2007, 01:35   #136 (permalink)
gandolfi
Basic Account Customer
Default Gandolfi v NatWest - IIN COURT this friday! (for application hearing) Help, please!?!

Hi Everyone
I could really do with some help with this. I'm in Court on friday....

NatWest's case was struck out in July, but the Judge reinstsated it (and simultaneously stayed it). I made an application to set aside the reinstatement and to oppose the stay. The application to remove the stay was dismissed. But, the Judge has scheduled an Application hearing for this friday for 30 mins to judge my application to set aside the reinstatement.....

I need to get my arguments sorted out and make sure everything is in order.

************************* ************************* *******

Question One:

They have failed to supply a copy of the loan agreement, copies of default notices, insurance policy details, T&Cs etc. What basis in law can I argue that their case should remain struck out because of their failure to supply this information? The loan and the default notices are in their POC, yet they have failed to supply copies



************************* ************************* *******
Question Two

The following is a draft of what I hope to use for the Application Hearing (to set aside the reinstatement). Your advice on how to strengthen the arguments would be very helpful.

************************* ************************* *******

"I respectfully object to the reinstatement of the Claimant's case and wish to apply to have the Court's Order set aside.

Objections to the Reinstatement of the Case:

1) National Westminster Bank began its case against me seven months ago. They have continually hindered the progress of my Defence by failing to provide information when formally requested, and by not complying with the Court's Order to submit their Allocation Questionnaire. Despite being represented by specialist solicitors - and having adequate time to submit their Allocation Questionnaire - they failed to do so, even after the Court issued an 'Unless Order'.

2) My intention from the beginning has been to file an amended defence and Counterclaim. My ability to fully particularise this amended defence and Counterclaim depends on vital information that I have requested from the Claimant on several occasions and which they have failed to supply to me.

On xxth June 2007, I made a formal CPR18 Request for Information to the Claimant. A copy of this request was also sent to the Court at the time. On xxxxx August 2007, I also made a formal CCA request for the same information. The Claimant has still not supplied this information to me. My ability to submit an amended defence and counterclaim has therefore been frustrated because of their failure to provide the requested information.

*Copies of Subject Access Request/CPR18 and CCA requests
*Copies of letters from NatWest asking for more time to find the information
*Copies of letter from NatWest admitting that they are unable to find the information as requested

Three of the critically important items (in a list of several) requested in the CPR 18 Request are;

a) True copies of the original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank, as referred to in paragraphs 1) and 3) of the particulars of claim, and for my Personal Current Account.

b) A true copy of any Default Notice/s issued in respect of these accounts, as referred to paragraph 3) of the particulars of claim.

c) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account (including the Personal Current account), from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions or amendments to the present day.

Bank charges are not the only grounds upon which I dispute the debt. I do not acknowledge the loan and despite my repeated requests the claimant has still not produced a copy of any signed agreement to substantiate their assertion that money is owed under it. Without these items, the Claimant cannot enforce this debt. Their failure to comply with my CPR 18 request demonstrates their lack of co-operation in the progress of this case and a lack of respect for the correct procedures of justice. This is an abuse of process and I therefore request that the claimant's case remain struck out.


In the Alternative

If the Court acedes to the Claimant's request to reinstate the case, I request that the following conditions are applied by the Court:

1) That the stay is lifted on the grounds that the claim is a business claim and that bank charges are not the sole basis of my intended Counterclaim. The basis upon which a stay has been granted is with regards to awaiting the outcome of the ongoing "test case" currently being taken by the OFT against several banks. I respectfully request that this stay be lifted. This is upon the contention that as the central focus and grounds for the OFT’s case is to determine whether or not the charges are subject to the test of reasonableness, as required under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (UTCCR 99), then it would not be of any consequence to the basis of my Counterclaim in this case.
As this claim relates to a Business account, my original Defence did not include any reference to nor make any reliance upon the UTCCR. Furthermore, I have no intention of relying on UTCCR 99 in any future amended defence/Counterclaim. As such, it would serve no purpose to delay these proceedings in order to await the outcome of a case that would have no bearing or relevance upon this case.

2) That the claimant is ordered to comply with the defendant's part 18 request within 14 days and in default the claim be struck out.

3) Upon compliance with 2) the defendant to file an amended defence and counterclaim.

4) Claimant to file its response 14 days from date of service of counterclaim.

5) That the Claimant bank is prevented from applying further penalty charges to my account until the final settlement of the matter.

6) That the Claimant is prevented from applying interest charges to any outstanding amounts which are comprised of penalties until the settlement of the matter.

7) That the Claimant is prevented from making any entry on its own systems or from communicating any similar information to any third party about any matter insofar as it relates to penalty charges until the final settlement of the matter.

That the Claimant removes any derogatory entry on its own records insofar as it relates to penalty charges. (The Court has the power to do this under the Data Protection Act 1998 )

9) That the Claimant arranges the removal of entries from the records of any third parties to whom it has previously communicated information insofar as it relates to penalty charges. (The Court has the power to do this under the Data protection Act 1998.)&qu