Gandolfi v NatWest

[Parkvale]

Guido, I have just caught with this thread. Which has been extreemly traumatic for gandolfi to say the least., and your advice has been spot on. Well done.

[gandolfi]

Originally Posted by GuidoT

If you total claim does not exceed the sum they are claiming and you believe the sum they are claiming is correct, they we need to consider making a part 36 offer to afford you some protection from costs.

Thanks Guido. Apologies for delay in responding.

I'm sure that my claim will be for quite a bit more than theirs once I've added the interest they have charged (as well as contractual interest). Could you explain what a Part 36 offer would be? Would it mean me agreeing to pay some of the debt to bring it under the 'fastrack' level? I do feel that if I am going to raise a counter-claim then I want it to be for all that they owe me, not just to clear the debt.

I'm still in the process of calculating the actual interest charged by the bank and the claimable proportion of that interest in relation to the running total of charges at each interest date. There are quite a few points in the account history when the total charges exceed the total borrowing, but most of the time it is more complicated than that. e.g. where the charges=£1700 and the borrowing=£3900 - meaning I can claim 43.6% of the interest charged by the bank at that point and add it to the running total.

Once I have calculated the charges and the proportion of interest related to those charges, I also want to calculate the contractual interest for my claim. My claim goes back beyond 6 years and I've been charged interest at various rates over that time (from 11.5% to 29.5%). However, for at least the last 6 years I have been charged an overdraft rate of 29.5% on what I now realise is an amount of debt that was caused by the bank's own charges in the first place.

In what would seem logical fairness, I'd like to make the contractual calculations at 29.5%, but this will make my claim very big indeed. But, looking through the build-up of charges it is very clear that I could've paid the deposit for my mortgage at least two years earlier and could have taken greater advantage of rising house prices in those years (my house almost doubled in value over three years). NatWest's charges deprived me of that opportunity.

The total amount should be far in excess of the money NatWest is claiming. So, I don't think an offer of part-payment would be appropriate. If this exposes me to potential costs, what could that mean?

I look at others' successes and see that I have been similarly deprived of my money. I'm determined to fight back now in exactly the same way.

To help me calculate the contractual interest.......Does anybody know what the mathematics are for working out interest at 29.5%/11.5%/9.5%? I think I'm right in saying that for 8% it is 'CHARGE x DAYS x 0.00022'. It would be great to know the figure for the other rates.

Unfortunately, I've never used Excel before, so am working on manual spreadsheets at the moment to work out the charges and interest incurred...once the basic figures are worked out I can try putting them into one of the spreadies on the site to calculate interest, but it would be good for me to make the manual calculations aswell if possible.

Thanks again all and best wishes!

[gandolfi]

Just to keep you up-to-date with the figures...

The business account has total charges of £6650, plus £9860 of interest that the bank have charged me (over £4000 of interest has been charged by the bank on my account since June 2005). Giving a total of £16,500 before either contractual/court interest is added.

I now need to find a way of organising the contractual rate of interest to add to this with my claim. They have been charging me 29.5%. Is it valid for me to do the same?

[GuidoT]

Part 36 offers are written offers that are made by, say a defendant and if that offer is not accepted by the other side and the judge decides that a sum payable that is lower than the offer, then the claimant bears the cost of the action.

By way of example, A is claiming again bank B. A is claiming £15K. B makes an offer of £9K prior to the hearing. The judge decides £10K is payable, therefore B bears the legal costs (his own and any of A's).

Say in this example, B makes an offer £11K, then A bears the legal costs.

One significant point to note if that if A accepts B's offer prior to the trial, then B bears all the legal costs incurred up to that point.

Anyway, I think we can put this to one side for now, as I mentioned this when I did not know how much you claim was for. It is now more important to get your counterclaim in. However, you still need to bear this mind as the entitlement to contractual interest has yet to be tested in court.

Regarding your calculations, just use the latest rate of interest.

As a lot of your claim is for interest therefore you need to make sure the calculations and basis is correct. It can be complicated, a lot of people make a pigs ear of it.

If you are having any difficulties then post up here and you will be helped.

This spreadsheet and thread should help you:
Excel Contractual Interest Spreadsheet

[gandolfi]

I just wanted to check that my methods for calculating interest are correct. I have a couple of questions.

1) My first query is regarding the interest charged by the bank as a result of their charges. My method for calculating what is claimable is as follows:

If the running total of accumulated charges is £500 and the level of my overdraft for the period that the interest is taken is £1000, then I claim 50% of the interest charged for that period (let's say £20 of the £40 interest charged by the bank).

I then add that £20 to make a running total of £520 charges+interest.

On the next date that interest on the £1000 overdraft balance is applied to my account, I can claim a 52% proportion of the interest. As this accumulates the charges+interest eventually become greater than the overdraft debt, meaning that I claim 100% of the interest charged.

Is this correct?

2) My second query is regarding contractual interest. I intend to present 3 options to the judge at 29.5% (which they have been charging me for years), the loan rate of 9.5%, and the court interest at 8%.

It would be a big help if someone is able to let me know the correct maths for calculating these rates. I have prepared detailed manual spreadsheets (I am not Excel literate and am more confident with manually entering the calculations). I am assuming it is 'Charge x Number of days x ?????????'.

It would be a big help to know the correct equations for these calculations.

Thanks in advance!

[gandolfi]

Hi all (especially Guido T and Parkvale), hope you are well! Long time no post from me.

Firstly, BIG thanks to Mindzai for a fantastic spreadsheet, which I have now conquered. All of the figures have been calculated and I'm ready to fight back....

To sum up the situation......a claim was issued against me for loan/overdraft debts with Nat West (£15k). I have banked with them (business and personal) for 17 years. I replied to the claim stating that I intended to defend because the debt is now in dispute as it is made up of unlawful bank charges that I intend to reclaim. I also sent a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter to the bank and copy to the court (as per template).

On the allocation questionaire (for their claim against me) I requested a stay and more time to particularise my defence with a view to submitting an amended defence and counterclaim as soon as Nat West had supplied me with the requested account information. Meanwhile, I would calculate the figures using the statements I have kept (most of them).

The 40 day S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) deadline is now up and they have sent only a small number of statements for business/loan accounts and no statements at all for the personal account. They haven't complied with the request, so I have gone ahead with a calculations using the majority of my statements.

The figures are as follows:

PERSONAL Acc (from 1996 onwards - with some gaps):
Penalties = £1421
(no significant interest charged on penalties)
Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £1973.75
Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £13, 036.29
s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £977.63

BUSINESS Acc (from 1991 onwards - with one year missing, 1993):
Penalties = £6251
Interest Charged on Penalties = £6476.19
Total = £12,728.09
Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £15,650.33
Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £131,307.89
s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £7203.01

I am now ready to submit these figures to Nat West informing them that I intend to use them as a counterclaim to their action against me.

I am scared as hell, but it is really clear that their charges pushed me into a debt trap (loans + more charges) throughout my relationship with them, so I want my money back!!!

I've been reading through BONG's thread which seems a really useful source for claims that include both contractual interest and use of the Limitations Act to claim beyond six years. Any other recommendations would be welcome. Sources of information on the wording of claims featuring the Limitations Act would be particularly helpful.

My case is a really complex one that includes both business and personal accounts and I am still feeling a little out of my depth. The templates I intend to use are for business accounts which don't refer to consumer law. Is it better to just use that for the entire claim or should I also add the consumer law with reference to the Personal account?

Also, If I were to follow the absolute principle of equity in my claim for full contractual interest at the UAB rate (which they are still charging me on the O/D), the final figure would be ridiculously high (£158,493!). The 10.45% rate is equivalent to their loan rate (which they are charging me on the loan proportion of my debt) which gives a final claim figure of £31,773.17.

My instinct is to submit the 10.45% claim with the 8% court rate in the alternative. Is this correct do you think? I want to get it absolutely right from the beginning.

Also, a lot of the interest claims are for a proportion of the interest on Nat West 'Business Development' loans that relate to the business account. They were only necessary because of the excess charges that had accumulated. It is fairly straightforward, I think, because they were directly related to the account and were not taken out with other banks. However, any advice on that element would be much appreciated. I have been very careful with the proportionate interest calculations and haven't doubled-up with O/D interest at the same time (all in proportion to accumulated charges at interest date).

Advice on the letter to Nat West would be appreciated - is it OK to just send the LBA and then go straight in with the Counterclaim? Or should I write the preliminary letter first? Time is short with their claim against me still running. However, I want to be seen to have given them sufficient opportunity to respond....

Anyway, I'm revved up and waiting to hit back!!

Thanks again in advance for help!

PS - should I be contacting moderators/submitting litigation details etc? Not sure of the etiquette, but any help from the top would be gratefully received.

[hedgey06]

Hi Gandolfi............... and phew!!! I've got headache after reading all that - way too complex for me on a Friday night!!!

PM Parkvale with your litigation details - name of bank, amount of claim plus claim number!

Good luck mate, hedgey xxxx

[GuidoT]

I am off out now to get drunk, private message me in case I forget to respond tomorrow.

[hedgey06]

Originally Posted by GuidoT

I am off out now to get drunk, private message me in case I forget to respond tomorrow.

[gandolfi]

Thanks Hedgey!
Sorry I made your head hurt....too much heavy-duty information for a friday night, I know. No wonder GuidoT had to go and get drunk!!

Hope you all had a good Bank Holiday weekend anyway - it's good that the banks get a break every now and then, I guess!

PM sent to Guido T. Will let Parkvale know the details as soon as my Counter Claim goes in against Nat West.

Cheers!

[scott150663]

Hi Gandolfi

My instinct is to submit the 10.45% claim with the 8% court rate in the alternative. Is this correct do you think? I want to get it absolutely right from the beginning.

if u r going to try and claim 10.45% why not go for the full CI rate as u r giving the judge an alternative any way????......Also u could use the higher rate of interest as a bargaining tool if needed................... .............

Scott

[Parkvale]

I negotiated with the bank over the interest, and it is much better to aim higher and drop. Than start lower and raise. Good luck.

[GuidoT]

This is a PM from Gandolfi that I will respond to in square brackets below:

Hi Guido T
Hope you had a well-deserved drunken night on friday and a good Bank Holiday! (Congratulations on your recent success against Nat West BTW!!!)

Thanks for responding to my thread again - I realise friday night probably wasn't the best time to drop such complex stuff into the forum. I work away from home a lot and it was the first chance I'd had to catch up.

I've got the rest of this week to focus on my claim and get everything sent to Nat West to really start the ball rolling. Because it is so complex I want to make sure I'm doing it right from the start.

My plan at the moment is to construct a letter that includes the following:

1) To draw attention to their non-compliance regarding my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter. To request missing statements and full disclosure of any manual intervention. State that I am continuing my claim on the basis of the statements that I already have and that the claim is likely to increase when I receive the outstanding information from them.

[I would estimate your charges based on previous years for now as my post 14, I do not know much about non compliance with S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)]

2) Request T&Cs and charges leaflets for the whole period (can I expect them to supply these? I want to make sure I'm on solid ground re: T&Cs).

[I am not sure on this point, but some terms are linked to here:
GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......
specifically here:
Internet Archive Wayback Machine
I have not got this to work though]

3) Template Prelim/LBA(?) letter - ensuring that references to Consumer Law are stated as relevant to Personal Account charges only. Claim for refund of charges, interest on those charges plus Contractual Interest at 10.45% (the loan rate being charged by them at the moment on 2/3rds of my debt). I will also point out that if I have to submit a Counterclaim, the 8% court interest will be presented to the Judge in the alternative at that point.

[Confused about requirement for letters now, as you are counterclaiming these are not required and nor do you have time]

4) Spreadsheets with details of all figures.

My main worries are:
1) whether to anticipate their attempt to use the Limitations Act. Do I raise it first in my letter? What should the wording for that be?

[Do not issue an pre-emptive defence, let then run the statute barred argument first, if indeed they do]

2) do i need to explain how the interest calculations on the spreadsheet were made (for the interest they charged me)? i.e. Do I say "I am also claiming a refund of the O/D and Loan interest which was taken from my account as a direct result of accumulated charges and the resulting necessity of taking out Business Development Loans to repay those charges (loans that would otherwise have been largely unnecessary). The amount of interest claimed is proportionate to the total balance of borrowing (avg O/D for the interest period + Loan balance) against the total accumulated charges at the interest point."?

[I do not know about this]

3) Also worried about their claim against me still ticking away as I prepare this Counter Claim......At some point I have to submit my amended defence to the court with all of these details....

[You must deal with this soonest]

Perhaps what I should do is get this package together to send to Nat West as a prelim letter, stating that I will be sending a LBA in 14 days time and that the Counterclaim will be submitted 14 days after that. I can submit that letter along with my spreadsheets to the Court as my amended defence. Hopefully that will [put the brakes on their action...? This way I will be seen to give Nat West sufficient time to respond to my claim before action is taken.

[Your amended defence and counterclaim should be submitted simultaneously with headings accordingly, if you PM me your email address I can send you one I have prepared but not based on bank charges so that you can get a feel for it. As I said no need for LBA]

Does this sound OK? Sorry to burden you with an excess of information - hopefully, once I have taken this first big leap into the unknown things will move more steadily in smaller steps.

Thanks again for helping me. I really appreciate it!

[I reiterate you must get on with this]

[gandolfi]

Thanks Scott, and welcome to the thread!
All advice (especially from a celebrated winner) is much appreciated! I raised a glass (several actually) to your win last month - it was a big boost for me in the early stages. Hope you've been enjoying the success!

So, if I were to apply the UAB rate (29.5%) as contractual interest, the total claim would reach almost £160,000. That would be £14,000 charges+interest, plus £146,000 contractual interest. I'd very much like to knock you off the top spot with such a huge claim, but I'm not sure I want to risk sticking my neck out as far as that....if I wasn't already being pursued in court by Nat West for the debt that was caused by the charges, I might be more inclined to try it. It makes sense logically, but with all of the other complications (Business+Personal, pre-6 Years etc), is it pushing it too much, do you think?

Did you claim contractual interest? From reading your thread I thought you just claimed the 8%...I would be happy with that, but want to claim a contractual rate from the very beginning.

Does anybody know what the authorised borrowing rate is for business accounts. Maybe that would be a more justifiable figure?

Thanks again for help. Cheers!

[gandolfi]

Thanks Guido T
I'm on the case and aim to submit everything by the end of this week. I realise the urgency, but wasn't sure about going straight to the Counterclaim without supplying Nat West with the information beforehand, to give them an opportunity to settle before court action. If you feel that I have no choice (or that it is better) then I will go ahead with the Counterclaim straightaway. Your guidance for the Amended Defence/Counterclaim would be very helpful (I'll send my email to you).

The figures are all in place now. I've included estimates of the parts that are missing. Despite Nat West's non-compliance with the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), I already have most of my statements.

Still unsure about the correct CI rate to claim. Aiming high and negotiating is right, I think. But a £160,000 claim including CI @ 29.5%? Can that be justified?

[scott150663]

hi

thanks for your kind comments....

i only claimed the statutory 8% as there were very few people who had claimed CI there were a few that had won with CI but the claims were fairly small, one of your subscibers PARKVALE has just won with CI so he is better informed to advise u on that aspect of your claim......


Im about to start another claim which is for £4k with the CI 29.6% it adds up to £14k ..........so im going to give it a go.........the worst that will happen is i will accept the £4k with the 8%.............


All decisions need to be made by yourself as its