Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[tifo]

yes .... it states :

Sole traders count as businesses rather than consumers for any purchases they make in connection with their business activities. However, if the trader offers you credit terms up to £25,000 you receive the same protection as individuals under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for this element of the contract.

[JOSH_IOU]

im going to report this link sowe can get some help on this one folks because i think this willchange things.

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by tifo

Sole traders count as businesses rather than consumers for any purchases they make in connection with their business activities. However, if the trader offers you credit terms up to £25,000 you receive the same protection as individuals under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for this element of the contract.

I'm not sure I understand this - who is being offered credit by whom? Is it saying the sole trader gets the same protection as an individual for loans (s)he takes out up to £25k or that an individual borrowing money from a sole trader does

Originally Posted by JOSH_IOU

im going to report this link sowe can get some help on this one folks because i think this willchange things.

What do you think it will change?

[JOSH_IOU]

Something else here as well.

Remedies for breach of contract | Business Link

[JOSH_IOU]

Hi Steven.

As a soltrader I have been told i dont have the same protection as a consumer. I understand this. But as a soletrader we do have a level of certain protection under the act thats in that link.

The soletrader that purchases the service off another company/soletrader is the consumer. Not the other way around.

Sorry steven but i dont understand the question.

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by JOSH_IOU

Sorry steven but i dont understand the question.

Maybe I misunderstood, but you seemed to be implying that this was news that somehow change everything.

I'm a sole trader too - it is good to see that we do get some of the protection that consumers get.

[JOSH_IOU]

I couldn't agree more steven

[tifo]

Originally Posted by steven4064

I'm not sure I understand this - who is being offered credit by whom? Is it saying the sole trader gets the same protection as an individual for loans (s)he takes out up to £25k or that an individual borrowing money from a sole trader does.

The Sole Trader is the customer of the bank or finance company that offer credit up to £25k and gets the protection, even though it is a business to business transaction.

If the Sole Trader has his own customers to whom he/she offers credit, that customer gets the protection anyway as it's a business to consumer transaction.

[photoman]

As someone who had a Business account as a sole trader, I would like to offer some views on this.

1/ On a few occasions I did also have some loans with the bank, and in the agreements, they did always state that the loan was covered by the CCA74.
At the time, I did actually just think that this was simply because any such loan of such type was just automatically covered by CCA74, and that whether you were a personal customer or business customer, the actual total amount involved was insignificant.

So, yes I do see what you are now implying regards the exceptions in the legislation.

But unfortunately I do think it is perhaps clutching at straws in trying to use this as evidence that sole traders may also be able to benefit across the board from consumer legislation, provided their total indebtedness to the bank is less than £25k.

2/ If anyone has some issues to resolve with regards loans below £25k, then IMHO, yes I would say that you can invoke and use the CCA74.
However this does NOT change the sole traders position with regards the default charges currently in question.
The CCA does not cover these anyway, and never did (as indeed equally so, it does not apply to overdrafts on personal accounts either, as it is legislation designed to deal with loans not overdrafts).

Nor does it change the sole traders situation with regards the UTCCR99.
As a sole trader,regardless of whether any overdraft was above or below £25k, the situation regards legislation that you can or cannot invoke remains unchanged.
It is only with regards to actual formal agreed loans below the £25k threshold covered by the CCA74 that sole traders can perhaps invoke and benefit from some of the same protection as consumers.

[JOSH_IOU]

Thanks for the info Photoman and the long reply.

There are 2 seperate acts that have the word contract in i have seen.

The unfair terms in consumer contract act
and the Unfair contract terms act.

Has there been an amendment that binds the 2?

[photoman]

Originally Posted by JOSH_IOU

Thanks for the info Photoman and the long reply.

There are 2 seperate acts that have the word contract in i have seen.

The unfair terms in consumer contract act
and the Unfair contract terms act.

Has there been an amendment that binds the 2?

As far as I am aware (and I have not heard of any Banks defence that has tried to question or disprove this) then UCTA (The unfair Contract Terms Act) is applicable and so can be invoked in Business claims.
However, the UTCCR (The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations) cannot.
The key word (and thus difference) in the two acts is "Consumer", and in it's opening paragraphs the latter act sets out its' scope and jurisdiction by providing a description of consumer as being someone acting outside of their business or profession.
So if an account is set up for the purpose of doing business then it is still covered by the former act, but not the latter.
This is one of the reasons (apart from the difference in charges and fees) that Banks are not happy about someone operating a Business through a personal account, and so urge people doing so to change the nature of their account.
In short, if they suspect that someone is using a personal account to operate a business they kick up a fuss, and get you to open a business account so that: a/ they can then charge you more in fees etc, and b/ they have less liability to you.

[JOSH_IOU]

Yes i knew about the UCTTR's Just like Lloyds TSb Are now exempt from CCA (consumer credit act) in the 2008 amendments that came into force last month. The UCTTR's cover Business to consumer contracts Thats how i think of it any ways.

Its my understanding though that there is a lower limit on the CCA some sites say £100. Dose this mean I should wait before i threaten court action and let the banks knock up the charges to £100 They stand at 76 at the moment and ive already complained about them. ( but i have not as yet threatend court action)

[TINK660]

zootscoot,
Hi all,

Does any body have any business account T & Cs preferably historic ones but any will do.

did you receive the terms and conditions of nat west business banking 1996 that I send you last week.

Tink

[TheyrCriminals]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone please post up all relevant sections of the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977) in relation to business claims. A friend of mine has had a letter from Barclays Bank plc singing the tune of the fact that the penalty at common law argument is likely to no longer be applicable. In addition Barclays is confident that the same approcah will be taken to the historic terms and conditions. They may turn out to be right or wrong, however in the mean time we need everything we can get our hands on in the Unfair Contract Terms Act (1977) to support the legal avenue for business claims.

Any help appreciated.

TheyrCriminals

[photoman]

Okay,
I have been informed that CAG is currently doing some work with regards the implications of the recent OFT case upon small business claims.

So, if you can afford to wait a short while, then I am sure there will be something solid available soon to aid Business claimants.

In the meantime, you can always download the act (I think it's available from the CAG statutes library, otherwise there are several other online sources), and previous thinking was that you should be taking look at section 4 (and I imagine this will still be advocated for use in future CAG strategies/POC's etc).

Although section 4 does keep mentioning the word "consumer" in said paragraph, in the opening paragraphs of the act it does stipulate what contracts the act actually covers:
quote:
"to limit the effect of unfair terms in consumer and small business contracts"

So this means it does also encompass and cover contracts for small business'.

PM