Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[photoman]

Originally Posted by photoman

Agree with GuidoT;
Although not hopeless, a pre 6 years with Ci claim is a lot more difficult, and carries greater risks.
There are however certain benefits when it comes to responding to the standard "defence"() offered by banks if you are a Business account claimant. For example: their claims regards "free" banking are easily dismissed, as You only need point out, that as a business account holder, you accepted and paid regular charges to your account for most (probably all) transactions, not just those in default.

Something you should really ought to look into and clarify at this point though, is the terms of agreement regards your last win.
Do check whether it was in "full and final settlement", and if so, what this actually encompassed. ie; was it just that particular claim, or was it with regards to all claims upon that account per se.

For the record, I shall myself be pursuing CI with my own future claims, (as I believe it has solid substance..... and I would have pursued this much harder in my prior case... if only I had found out about and based it upon cases such as Sempra Metals in time).

But (as GuidoT says), you should personally weigh up the substantial risks involved, and be committed to spending a great deal of time researching and preparing such a course (take you current friends, social time, and hair, then divide them by four, whilst also multiplying your wrinkles and chest pains by the same factor).

You must also be fully aware of the risks involved if you don't do this.

Personally, I do have the time, commitment and confidence to pursue such an aim. Plus (hopefully), certain advantages that may safeguard me from some of the risks and grief. This includes; knowing that in the case that I do not win, the only person who could really suffer is myself.

However, I would not advocate going this route to everyone, unless you meet the above criteria.

PM

Just bumping this, as I was composing it whilst others were in process of responding.

[GuidoT]

PM, on the CI front this very recent case may be of interest, I have not quite dissected it myself yet.

[JOSH_IOU]

Banks make 63k off a £35 charge? are we getting thread's crossed?

[steven4064]

Like photoman I am claiming CI based on Sempra in my claim against Goldfish. However, the total claim is <£1000. I also have some charges longer ago than 6 years and will be using s32 LA 1980 as the basis of that part of the claim. Finally, my Goldfish account is closed so there is not much they can do in the way of retaliation.

[photoman]

Okay,

Firstly, I don't think hsbcfiddled is actually talking about the calculation of£63k in interest as arising from a single long ago taken £35 charge.
So, even if such a sum is actually calculated and based upon a more substantial amount of charges taken, the figure does still instantly seem astronomical.

But then, consider and bear in mind, that this viewpoint is mostly influenced by our own day to day personal experiences of how interest actually seems to work for common folk in practice.
And this is normally just limited to acquiring a small % return upon our own savings. So, had we ourselves had access to the same sums taken instead, we just cannot envisage how anyone could actually achieve such monumental returns.
So we naturally make comparisons to our experiences.

However; given enough time, capital, specialized know how, and decent rates of compounded interest over a significant period, it is feasible in theory, for someone/some business to turn what are originally quite small amounts into a very substantial gain.

Banks DO have all of the above, and it's their core business, so let us presume this really has been the case, and they really have made such sums.
Then, by applying CCI to a claim, what we would then be seeking is a form of restitution.
Not to be confused by any issues of seeking recompense for our own potential losses (ie; through our own loss of use of the sums), which could easily just be considered a claim for damages. But rather, being applied as an attempt at stripping them of their own most likely gains ie; a removal of their enrichment, had through the Time Value use of sums taken from and conceded to by ourselves, whilst acting under mistake (which also ties in nicely with sec 32).

This is all where the ruling in Sempra was very significant, and is an absolute study must for anyone considering such arguments.


Having now said all that, I don't think we should turn this into a Ci discussion thread.

I think the topic has been substantially covered elsewhere, and those who wish to investigate or pursue such ideas further, can seek out relevant threads, or go ahead and start further discussion threads on the subject.

So lets now please limit any further comments on the subject to one more post apiece (but do feel free to post within it links to existing or new threads on the topic), and then respond to and discuss it all elsewhere.

Lets then please keep this thread to the topic at hand.

Business claims.


PM

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by photoman

Lets then please keep this thread to the topic at hand.

Business claims.

Quite right.



For those interested, CI stuff can be found here and here and in quite a few other places

[hsbcfiddled]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for all the replies, sorry I haven’t replied until now.
I have 5 children and last night I got mugged off the pc.

I will try to explain why I consider I am just in claiming £63k interest.

My threads are;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/78466-hsbcfiddled-hsbc-help-please.html

and

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/78205-hsbc-business-account-closed.html

There are other threads

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/77661-hi-advice-please-loan.html

However a short explanation:

Business account- details supplied from accountant- During the period 1994 – 2001 HSBC took £8700 (I have exact figures for last two years and I am estimating 15% would apply to previous years) in charges roughly 15% would be account fees therefore £7400 is unlawful figures.

During the same period HSBC took £6500 in bank interest, and £3500 in loan interest.

Ceased trading and working as self employed 2001- business account still open whilst I tried to pay off debts at £250 plus per month.

September 2003 business closed – received refund payment of £1600+ recently for period 2001 -2003.

Personal account- opened 2001 Charges to date £9000+

However as a result of Business account debt being carried into personal account I got put on a Managed Loan – paid £10k on it then CCA’ed them for agreement – no agreement so no more payments made- ML is a dodo!- But they still have had £10k.

To summarise-
If HSBC hadn’t taken £7400 in unlawful charges there wouldnt have been bank interest of £6500 and definitely not loan interest of £3500.
Then there is the £10k in ML payments.
That’s roughly £27k that doesn’t belong to them.

Then when they put me on the ML they took away our overdraft and credit card and my average of £28 in charges per month went up to £280 per month.
With 5 kids we had to go to other credit suppliers who charged exorbitant rates of interest and it has cost us thousands- estimate £10k.

Now if I had that £37k I could have invested more money into my company pension for when I retire.

Also who has had the use of my monies these last 12 years?
Who has made profits-massive profits with yours and MY MONEY?

Thoughts please?

Hsbcfiddled – fiddled I thought was more polite than hsbcshafted!

[hsbcfiddled]

PM.

Something you should really ought to look into and clarify at this point though, is the terms of agreement regards your last win.
Do check whether it was in "full and final settlement", and if so, what this actually encompassed. ie; was it just that particular claim, or was it with regards to all claims upon that account per se.

Oh dont you worry - the condition of acceptance was the 'peroid of claim 2001 May - Sept 2003'

I am a strong character and love a 'Good fight' so to speak - or whatever.

fiddled.

[hsbcfiddled]

Originally Posted by jamesrap

wonder why no one asks for the interest they make off the charges?

Thats the whole point - it is your money that they made their massive profits with.

What if someone stole £10 from you and bought a lottery ticket with that money- then they win the lottery jackpot of £10,000,000.00 would you be happy when they gave you your £10 back?

fiddled

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by hsbcfiddled

Thats the whole point - it is your money that they made their massive profits with.

What if someone stole £10 from you and bought a lottery ticket with that money- then they win the lottery jackpot of £10,000,000.00 would you be happy when they gave you your £10 back?

fiddled

Don't they refer to that as 'unjust enrichment'?

[photoman]

Oh yes indeedy !!

Not only are a lot of us subjected to the original charges, (and account interest thereon)...... we are then later subjected to further interest upon loan accounts to repay these initial charges (and interest thereon).....AND we are also subjected to additional interest upon the account that the loan repayments come from.
It becomes a right old jacobs ladder, and before you know it, a charge of say £35, has soon spiralled into your owing and paying out to them £100's !!

I have tried to raise this issue into a more general awareness before, and there is a link in my signature to a thread I started upon the issue.
I would be very happy if this could be revived, as it is an issue that is often overlooked (perhaps because of the complexity in calculating it all).

I for one am attempting to calculate ALL their subsequent gains from the initial charges, and in my next claims I will certainly be submitting a claim for such.
I must say though, that it is not an easy task, and involves calculating interest upon interest upon interest etc.
Anyone else interested in doing the same, please visit my other thread, leave some comments, and perhaps we can pool our knowledge and make some inroads into making such complete calculations more a matter of course for most claims.

PM

[hsbcfiddled]

PM...Going back to the POC you kindly posted for me could i try for the unauthorised overdraft interest rate at 9.9% above the bank of England base rate which i believe is 18.3% = 28.2%?

or CI at 14.8% APR as applied to me in a ML?

and leave it to the Court to decide?

fiddled

[steven4064]

Bank of England base rate is 5.5% (5/2/08 )

[hsbcfiddled]

I was told yesterday by a HSBC employee that the basic rate for an unauthorised overdraft on a business account was 18.3% and that a poorly managed or if consistent exceeding of an overdraft occurred then the rate could have up to 9.9% loading on to the 18.3% resulting in 28.2% interest applied.

Below is an extract that I have 'edited out' details of source.



Authorised over