Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[Celicaman]

Originally Posted by businessaccountrefund

thx celicaman,

i have had a look through the pages that you recomended. the one thing i havent got is the statements for the account. i did try sending them the letter template for the personal account. they declined the info. is there a request for information form somewheere for limited companies. thanks for your help.

Ok
Q1. You are a business and you dont have the bank statements, can i ask how, as this is a legal requirement for tax purposes and have to keep all books for at least 6 years, so you should have them ?

Q2. Are you claiming back past 6 years?

Try this for asking for the charges summary/statements. THis is a subject access request, which they MUST comply with within 40 Days !

1. Data Protection Act, Subject Access Request letter - List of charges

Use that template.You will need to send that with a cheque for £10 as per data request ( you may get cheque back, not all cash it ).

Q3.Which bank are you claiming from. ?

Only drawback with statements is:

HSBC statements only show charges as a whole on the statement and can include lawfull charges as well as unlawfull ones. So with them you need the summary of charges sheet which gives a breakdown of the actual charges from which you pick the ones you can claim back.

Some statements show the charges for OD fee & charges as item, and to claim correctly you need to be able to claim back the right things, However i know of one claimant who has just had offer today for business claim that he had put claim in for all the charges on statement as the bank did not supply the breakdown. ( He only just got the breakdowns after much badgering) and before he could even amend his claim, they have offered him pretty much what the ammended amount would have been but not the original amount of claim (which was double), so it seems they picked out the charges he could claim & offered them back, with interest as it was at court stage. Good luck or good managenent, who knows ?

All banks are different, so best to do it correctly as other banks could have got same claim to court and asked for claim to be thrown out as it was incorrect.

Keep reading & Learning.

Not being funny above but to advise correctly, peeps need all the info.
Again thats why your own thread is required, put in all your info of how and what (without personal details ) its your story of your claim, and all in one place is easy to follow:
Also others who are new can also follow it and learn what happens.

CM

[whirlyturtle]

Hi photo man - Can u help please. I have aksed for monies to be returned to me from Nat west. I am a small sole trader and had a Nat west business account and I am claiming bank charges of nearly £1,000.It's been done using all the templates from this site. They've send me a letter saying it will be 6 to 8 weeks before they can deal with my request for the money. Is this still viable or are they putting me off an I can I now take it further onto the next stage.Thnaks any help appreciated

[Celicaman]

Originally Posted by whirlyturtle

Hi photo man - Can u help please. I have aksed for monies to be returned to me from Nat west. I am a small sole trader and had a Nat west business account and I am claiming bank charges of nearly £1,000.It's been done using all the templates from this site. They've send me a letter saying it will be 6 to 8 weeks before they can deal with my request for the money. Is this still viable or are they putting me off an I can I now take it further onto the next stage.Thnaks any help appreciated

Hi whirlyturtle,
If you have used the sites business prelim and LBA letters for your claim, you have now given them 28 days in total.
The letter is a standard Fob off letter. Its your claim and you control the timelines.
The next letter you get will probably be offer of part payment of your claim, with the usual your not entitled to this but as a gesture of good will we will give you so much.
File your claim, you gave them long enough, and they only say no anyway so why wait. ( this way as well you get to include the stat interest as part of your settlement figure )
keep reading up and good luck

Dont forget to update your own thread as to what you have sent and received, that way your progress is all in one thread. Its easy reading then for peeps to read and advise.

Celicaman

[andrew1]

Hi guys and gals, I wonder if any of you know or could tell me if the CCA relates to this scenario? :

Sole trader, with a 'Trading As' business name. Ordered building goods from suppliers and ran up a bill in excess of £20k.

Had difficulty with the contractor he worked on and used the goods on and was not paid by the contractor and has no likely-hood of ever getting paid.

The supplier of the goods let him run up the credit account over a number of months and has now sued him for the money, which is fair enough. BUT.. my question is: as there was never any credit agreement or formal application for an account can the company sue him personally without a credit agreement as say a bank or Credit card company has? This company are now chasing his assets (home) but I just want to check out the requirements. They have already got a Judgment, but he never went to court to defend so it was granted by default. I want to see if I can overturn this. Any thoughts? Cheers

[ataction]

Well not really relevant to this site, however he his liable for the debt, he should have gone to court at least he could have made an offer to repay the debt over a set period. He may still be able to negotiate some kind of stage payment, however he cannot get out of the debt, unless he is insolvent. This is contract law, and he has broken his side of the contract and does not have a leg to stand on.

[Goldlady]

I believe best course of action is to apply to the court to pay in installments Andrew. The form I think he needs is this one http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/c.../n245_0204.pdf - but if he goes to the court they should be able to help. We tried this with CCJ for limited company and it was rejected by judge as not personal debt - think it cost us £65 to put the application in.

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by ataction

Well not really relevant to this site, however he his liable for the debt, he should have gone to court at least he could have made an offer to repay the debt over a set period. He may still be able to negotiate some kind of stage payment, however he cannot get out of the debt, unless he is insolvent. This is contract law, and he has broken his side of the contract and does not have a leg to stand on.

Thanks ataction, I appreciate it is not bank charges, but many situations are not carried out correctly in business with regard to debt and there are certain criteria which have to be followed, especially when 'contracts' as you put it are challenged in courts. There are charges issues on this, and disputes over the amounts, but I didn't want to take up the thread with the detail for the very reasons you outline. He has suffered from a similar rip -off by the contractor he worked for to the tune of £130,000 so it's swings and roundabouts. I just needed to know if a credit agreement or any agreement needs to be in place before a county court judgment can be obtained had he attended court as do consumer credit agreements for consumers. Sole Traders (and this is why I posted on this particular thread as it's pertinent to businesses) are treated as 'consumers' and individuals when it comes to trading and are obviously not protected by Limited Liability and if a claim is being made and he likely to lose his home I need to make sure that ALL documentation and claims are to the letter of the law. I run a business myself so I am not looking to get out of the moral issue of paying one's debts, I am looking, like the banks do, for the correct documentary procedures whether by a bank or a business. I think this type of situation affects many sole traders so your responses, and I thank you for them, are of interest to many.


P.S - Thanks Goldlady that's handy to have.

[Goldlady]

Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002: "consumer" means any natural person who, in the contracts covered by these Regulations, is acting for purposes which are outside his trade, business or profession;

The definition of 'deals as consumer' is in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 s12(1), which states:

'A party to a contract 'deals as consumer' in relation to another party if

(a) he neither makes the contract in the course of a business nor holds himself out as doing so; and (b) the other party does make the contract in the course of a business...'




Sorry but there you go. As someone who is paying a CCJ to the Inland revenue and has 60k of other debt all for being a sole trader when we had to make all our staff redundant due to foot and mouth I now have a limited company - never again lol!

[andrew1]

Sorry Goldlady, I don't exactly follow your line here. the quote isn't actually saying what I think you are concluding with, which is the trading between a sole trader and its' suppliers is a 'contract' despite what has been written. The Inland Revenue are somewhat different are they not when it comes to 'contracts' between two parties? The Revenue always seem to have a different set of rules to other creditors.

I am just saying "how can a supplier raise a summons and prove a debt when no contract of any kind has been written?" The fact he got a CCJ was because he never even opened the envelope let alone turn up to court to defend. He disputed the debt value anyway, but with all the pressure close his mind to it all. I am just trying to establish the debt v CCA requirements as in a credit agreement.

I appreciate the input here, but I am trying to thrash out the exact answer if I can.

[Goldlady]

Hi Andrew, basically there does not need to be a written contract and if he purchased the goods or service in the course of his business he is not a consumer and the CCA cannot help him. My comment about the Inland Revenue debt was simply my way of saying beware of being a sole trader as you can lose everything! He could go back to court to dispute the amount (different form needed) but from what you have said he would have a hard time proving there was no contract. Presumably he placed orders and received goods and invoices from the supplier at the time and possibly also if there were any problems with the goods the supplier would have terms and conditions which would require any complaint to be made within a specified time limit.

I am not trying to be the angel of doom, but I have been in similar situations and I do wish I could say something more positive.

[andrew1]

No, thanks that's just what I needed to know. I thought as much because I rarely signed contracts to buy goods, just ordered and received them so I hear exactly where you are coming from. Makes it clear for others too. I just wanted someone to confirm the facts and I thank you for that.

We have some negotiating to do, that's all now Good luck with yours Goldlady and that goes for anyone else too.

[TUTTSI]

I don't know if anyone has noticed but when my hubby received the defence from HSBC it is a carbon copy of the defence on a personal bank account claim, in this event their defence is worthless. If anyone is at court stage you would be advised to check their defence and you will see it is nothing but a sham.

DS

[paulsuebank]

Is this witness statement OK for business (or is there a better example somewhere else on CAG site (that I havent found yet?)

Following the excellant guidance offered by GaryH for consumer claims GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read...... and the defence from LLoyds saying UTCCR I have attempted to make sure I dont rely on consumer regs, but have kept some of the examples made by the OFT (is this worth keeping in as it applies to consumers?)

I would be grateful if anyone would have a read through just to check there are no glaring errors, a thousand thank you's in advance. Have I left anything out?

Sorry if its a bit long but I have struggled to make it relevant to Business.

1st WITNESS STATEMENT OF

1. I, the Claimant, am a litigant in person in this case.

2. I make this Witness Statement in support of my claim against the Defendant for the refund of penalty charges levied to my bank account by the Defendant bank.

3. I make this Witness Statement from information and facts within my own knowledge and which I believe to be true.

4. On 2 March 2007 I wrote to the Defendant, setting out the nature of my complaint and suggesting that the Defendant either justify the legitimacy and legal status of its charges or alternatively refund them. I attached a detailed breakdown of the individual charges and asked for a response within 14 days. EXHIBIT B

5. On 23rd March having had no response from the Defendant, I wrote again to reiterate my complaint, once again setting out the nature of my complaint and suggesting that the Defendant either justify the legitimacy and legal status of its charges or alternatively refund them. This time I asked for a response within 7 days or I would commence court proceedings to reclaim my money. I again attached a detailed breakdown of the individual charges EXHIBIT C

6. On the 29 March 2007 I again wrote to the Defendant and again set out the nature of my complaint and I refered the Defendant to the contents of my letter of 2 March and refused to accept the Defendants partial offer to reduce their charges in full and final settlement of my claim. I gave the defendant further time, until 3rd April, to offer a satisfactory response. Once again I attached a detailed breakdown of the individual charges. EXHIBIT D

7. On 5 April upon the Defendant's generic template rebuttal of my complaint, I filed an MCOL claim at Northampton County Court for the return of the charges levied by the Defendant, as particularised and detailed in the Particulars of Claim along with a detailed breakdown of the individual charges. The claim was sent via Nothampton County Court by first class post and deemed to be served on the Defendant on 10th April 2007. The defendant was given until 24 April to reply. EXHIBIT E

8. On the 7 April I received a letter from the Defendant dated 28 March enclosing a partial payment as full and final settlement. I wrote to the defendant to confirm I had received their letter dated 28th March 2007 on the 7 April, I referred the Defendant to my letter of 29 March (as referred to in 6. above) and returned the cheque. EXHIBIT F

9. The Defendant acknowledged service of the claim on 23 April.

10. On 30th Aprilthe Defendants solicitor messrs Foot Anstey wrote to me saying that I had not provided them with a detailed breakdown of the individual charges and threatened that if I did not provide them with a copy within 7 days Lloyds TSB bank would make an application to strike out my claim. I sent a further copy of the detailed breakdown of individual charges to Foot Anstey Solicitors on 2 May 2007. EXHIBIT G

11. On the 14 May I wrote to the Defendant in response to their letter dated 10 May in which the Defendant stated that the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 did not apply to me as I was a business customer. In my reply to the Defendant I outlined the case I was making and asked directly for the Defendant to justify that their penalties really do reflect their costs as a result of my breaches of contract and asked that the Defendant settle my claim to avoid further intervention by the courts. A copy of this letter was sent to their solicitor messrs Foot Anstey.EXHIBIT H

12. On 16th May 2007 I received notice from the court that a defence had been filed (in which the Defendants solicitors messrs Foot Anstey denied that the Unfair Contract Terms Act apply to business customers) and that the claim had been transferred to Yeovil County Court. .
Overview

13. I submit that the charges levied to my bank account, as set out in the enclosed schedule, are, notwithstanding the defence of the defendant, default penalty charges arising directly from my breaches of the contract between myself and the Defendant. As a contractual penalty, it is submitted that the charges are unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977, Supply of Good and Services Act 1982, and the common law. EXHIBIT I

14. It is admitted that the Defendants charges were levied in accordance with the terms and conditions of the account in question as a result of my breaches of the contract. However, it is submitted that the Defendants charges are not related to or intended to represent any actual loss caused by the breach of contract, but instead are unreasonable and unduly enrich the Defendant, which by virtue of the legislation and provisions cited in paragraph 13 above, exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

Disguised Penalties and breach of contract

15. The Defendant avers that the charges levied are legitimate fixed price contractual services, not related to breach of contract, and therefore not required to be a pre-estimate of loss incurred on the part of the Defendant. I refute this interpretation and further submit that this contention is merely an attempt to 'cloak', or disguise its penalties in order to circumvent the common law and statutory prohibition of default penalty charges with view to a profit.

16. The claimant believes the definition of a 'service’ to be a provision of knowledge, skill or other transferable facility that benefits the customer, and one which the customer agrees is at a reasonable market rate commensurab