tifo v NatWest (business account)

[tifo]

Originally Posted by yourbank

doubt it as it is a bank charges claim.

Yes, but they made a mistake and have apologised. They held my claim up for no valid reason and saying sorry is no compensation, i told them in writing and by phone it shouldn't be on hold, so they can't say they weren't aware, even if they did make the mistake initially. Then they now try to use their mistake as an excuse to say no charges applied as i am over 6 years.

I know it's a bank charges claim, but these have a way of growing into bigger things as the claim progresses and new info comes to light. I've had it before with other banks.

I'm going to try. No harm in that and they did make the mistake, otherwise i should have got my money a long time ago.

[yourbank]

The made a mistake in classifying as per FSA guidelines on complaint handling. If you had filed a case in the courts then the 8% s.69 would be being racked up. Sorry but I would say to you that you do need to tell them that they should be looking at charges from may 2001 up to now as a result of their mistake. If there has been charges since May 2007 then they need to look at those as well.

[photoman]

The statute of limitations is a forward looking act.

That is, you have 6 years from discovery of your rights to claim something in which to file an actual court claim. This date could only at most be claimed by them to have possibly been a couple of years back when such charges hit the media.

It also has no correlation to how far back you can claim.
It is only relevant in so far as making you obliged to claim for something within 6 years of discovering your right to claim it, regardless of how long ago the event was.
This means you still have plenty of time to file.
The 6 year rule could only go in their favour had you actually discovered and complained to them about the possibility that the charges were recoverable over 6 years ago.
This can be easily demonstrated as not having been the case.

Even then, in the unlikely scenario that they were somehow able to identify a time over 6 years ago that you had or could have become aware of your right to challenge the charges, then they have subsequently concealed this fact. In fact even just their recent attempts at confusing the issue amounts to concealment on their behalf.
You can also easily demonstrate that you conceded to the charges at the time of them, and did not challenge them due to acting under mistake.

This is all enough if need be, to invoke sec 32 of the Statute of limitations, thus raising any obstacles to claiming beyond 6 years.
The statute only requires ANY act of concealment, whether it has happened at the time of the charges or subsequently.

Ask them for further clarification on their recent argument, as it will then serve as even more evidence of such acts and attempts at concealment.
Read up on the act, and look at the various threads, then when you come to file if it were me I would submit a claim for all charges regardless of age (it worked for me, and many others).

PM


PS: CAG are in an ongoing process of determining the best way forward now for business claims. There are some very strong possibilities currently being looked at, and much work going on behind the scenes.
You should hold fire on actually filing a court claim for a short while. Once the site team have decided upon the best way forward for business claimants then news of such will appear in this forum.

[tifo]

Originally Posted by yourbank

The made a mistake in classifying as per FSA guidelines on complaint handling. If you had filed a case in the courts then the 8% s.69 would be being racked up. Sorry but I would say to you that you do need to tell them that they should be looking at charges from may 2001 up to now as a result of their mistake. If there has been charges since May 2007 then they need to look at those as well.

They already told me they'll look from May 2007 going back 6 years, but they don't seem to be doing this. This is what i'm fighting against, being told something else, them then doing otherwise.

The charges are only in 2001. The account was closed after that.

[tifo]

spoken to Chief Exec's office and told them what i think of the letter after their 'thorough investigation'. They told me to write if i'm not happy with the response.

so going to draft a letter up (again). Any specific points i should raise and ask them, apart from asking what the 'cheque return fee' and 'excess borrowing fee' is and why they think these are the type of charges they don't refund? I'm also going to ask them to send me a full statement of all items from my statements showing as the above.

[tifo]

Sent this to them :



In conclusion, I look forward to :

• Why the fees I have detailed in my request and schedule are considered non-refundable.

• For what type of activity is a ‘cheque return fee’ and ‘excess borrowing fee’ applied to the account and what exactly is this fee for.
• For what type of activity is an ‘unarranged borrowing fee’ and ‘paid referral fee’ and ‘unpaid fee’ applied to the account and what exactly is this fee for.
• For what type of activity is an ‘interest or monthly packaged account fee’ applied to the account and what exactly is this fee for.
• A full breakdown of how each charge or fee was applied to the account and its exact calculation to arrive at the amount charged.
• An investigation into how and why my account was put on hold and why my letters and telephone calls were ignored at the time.
• Compensation for the distress and inconvenience caused by putting my claim on hold and the 8 months that passed.
• A true copy of the credit agreement that applied to this account and any overdraft, together with any documents mentioned in it, including the Terms and Conditions applicable at that time.
• A payment of £X,XXX or £X,XXX or another sum and a full explanation of how this amount is arrived at.
• A full statement showing all charges and fees applied to the account as ‘cheque return fee’ and ‘excess borrowing fee’ or any other charge or fee.
• A copy of the relevant section and clause used when each charge or fee was applied to the account.
• Any other information which may be useful in this investigation and my claim.
• This list is not exhaustive but an indication of what needs investigating and responding

[tifo]

as you know yourbank, my statements say 'cheque return fee' at £30 each and 'excess borrowing fee' at £3.50 per day instead of 'unpaid item' and 'unarranged borrowing fee', so the bank say there are no valid charges to refund. This is a play on words and i can ask them why they have not used the appropriate terms in my statements.

So in my follow up schedule i have used the words above.

Hope they don't get confused.

[yourbank]

They may reply,(cos those scottish ones that took NatWest over do appear to be a bit dim on the old bank charges) that was the old NatWest Group Terminolgy.
I do hope they don't tempt me to point out which process manual(internal) that they are located in cos that would mean I would have to get the trusty steed out again that has been grazing for months. I look forward to the response you get tifo.

[yourbank]

Tifo, as a young whippersnapper on CAG, I remembered I had looked at business charges. I know banks views these forums so, for RBS Retail Regulatory Risk, I have something for you to read.

NatWest Business charges- A guide (incomplete at the moment)

Sadly, I never got round to finishing that guide.

[tifo]

got the same offer again as i did last year, i.e. less than 50% of the charges for returned cheques and being overlimit that i am claiming.

they still insist there are no charges to be refunded of the type i am asking for, but i only got this offer again because of the complaint letter i sent to Chief Exec, who's office haven't responded to any of the points i raised.

so basically, they offered me this money last year, put my account on hold for 9 months, say they're sorry about that and offer me the same again, still insisting there are no charges to refund, and i say my statements detail 'cheque return fee' at £30 each and totalling over £800, plus around £200 of 'excess borrowing fee' at £3.50 per day.

do they really think there are no penalty charges on the account and the statements are wrong or are they hoping i'll go away?

Chief Exec's office sent a letter saying they'll investigate and get back to me, after i sent the second letter i detailed above. I'm hoping they'll accept my points and make a higher offer more in line with the amount of charges, otherwise it will be court soon.

[yourbank]

I think this weekend I will re look at that business charges thread. THe bank are wrong, £3.50 excess borrowing fee is the antecedent to Unarranged borrowing and then Maintenance charge(I have to say I was sure UBF was from 2000 but will do some research on it). The cheque return fee is what it says on the tin.

[tifo]

Originally Posted by yourbank

THe bank are wrong, £3.50 excess borrowing fee is the antecedent to Unarranged borrowing ...... The cheque return fee is what it says on the tin.

I know it is what it says, but they're saying it's not that, it's a legitimate business fee and they only return 'unpaid fee' or 'paid referral fee', which is what it may be called now. So they're saying it's not a charge for returning a cheque, even though it says 'cheque return fee'! Are they mad?

[yourbank]

I say that is a load of billhooks(I am sure you have seen the "Fork Handles" sketch!!)

[tifo]

Originally Posted by yourbank

I say that is a load of billhooks(I am sure you have seen the "Fork Handles" sketch!!)

From the Two Ronnies !

You mean Four Candles sketch don't you?

Yeah, they're playing on words.

Don't know how they're going to convince a judge it's not a 'cheque return fee', i.e. it wasn't charged for returning a cheque, your honour, it just says that. He actually paid a fee for us to refer it back to the payee !

[yourbank]

It is in Plain and Intelligible Language. Excess Borrowing fee(what could that mean )

[tifo]

Originally Posted by yourbank

It is in Plain and Intelligible Language. Excess Borrowing fee(what could that mean )

Yeah, and i wonder what 'cheque return fee' means?

Well, i've asked them to tell me exactly what kind of activity the £30 and £3.50 per day was for and to provide a breakdown of their costs involved.

I'm still expecting the same kind of waffle i've already had.