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Old 27th February 2008, 09:13   #1 (permalink)
kabar
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Default Phorm.....

Over the past week or so its come to light that 3 of the major ISP's have taken up arms with a company called Phorm, some info:

3 Internet Providers in Deal for Tailored Ads - New York

Other places like The Register have also latched onto the news. One thing I would like to know, and I am sure some others would as well, where do we stand now that our privacy and habits are being sold on to this advertising harvest farm, as I also understand Phorm has a terrible background for security. Some more info on Phorm:

BadPhorm - When good ISP's go bad!: Welcome

Anyone know where we stand, can this be stopped?

Thanks


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Old 27th February 2008, 20:19   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

Kabar,

You beat me to it, was going to highlight the Register's story too.

Anyway, not sure where we stand. I have drafted a letter to send to Talk Talk complaining about this invasion of privacy. I think this is a very scary turn of events. If any Law Enforcement agency wanted this sort of information I'm sure that it would be alot harder for them to get than this.

Will be writing to the Information Commissioner in a fortnight as I guess I will get a bog standard reply from the fabulous customer relations department at Talk Talk.
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Old 28th February 2008, 00:13   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

I can't agree with this at all. A lot of major and not so major program makers offer either a lite or last years version of their program for free if you accept advertisements. This is a fair enough offer, you can decide to accept adverts in return for a free program.

It don't seem to me that these ISPs will be offering money off or free increased bandwidth if you accept adverts, they are going to impose without choice advertising on a service which you are paying for.
If they did offer an incentive in return for accepting advert, then this would be ok as you had a choice of which way you wanted to go.

It looks like some popup blocker writers and MS are in for a busy and profitable period if should prove to be legal and is enforced on those ISPs subscribers.

Last edited by Conniff; 21st March 2008 at 19:58.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 13:44   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

Even you web emails and unsecured on-line activities will be targeted, your personal information will be hijacked and sent to the Phorm servers to be analysed for ads.


This has to be illegal, surly someone knows where we all stand........

Another post is on this site now, so people are getting worried.


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Old 5th March 2008, 19:50   #5 (permalink)
razor8
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Default Sign The Petition

Was just over on "the Reg" and there is now a link to a petition.

Will post on the other Phorm forum so that noone misses it.

Can the forums be merged please?

Petition to: Stop ISP's from breaching customers privacy via advertising technologies.
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Old 6th March 2008, 17:43   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

This seems to be a spreading problem. I got sent one of these Phorms by Skillstrain (see posts about this company). Like a pillock I completed it without reading the threads on CAG, no doubt I will be bombarded with more spam as a result. Mind you I am with BTYahoo and their spam cleaning software is pretty good.
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Old 6th March 2008, 20:57   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

NEWS:

Here is the latest on Phorm, an interview with the CEO:

The Interview


Interesting.....is it just sales talk??


kabar

Last edited by kabar; 7th March 2008 at 21:26. Reason: Typo
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Old 9th March 2008, 14:07   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

right, i really think nows the time for the CAG members to really put the effort in, and pull this thing apart, if CAG is to be a real force in consumer market and advocacy.

the lack of response to this UK ISP/Phorm intrusion as regards UK Data Protection Act/RIPA and other related UK/EU laws threat is really disapointing when measured against the bank charges threads on this very board....

were are YOU ALL, and why arnt you concerned about this massive change to you ISP guarded person data usage.

have you all sent your registered post data protection act notices to your ISPs data contoller removing their right to process your data or something, and so are not worryed?.

right to start things off again
the Techteam ( as far as its known, he is a real tech inside the Phorm company, as apposed to the 3rd party that they contracted PR team thats also posting under a like name)
Cable Forum - View Single Post - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] officially posted this the other day.

"We would be very happy to have our systems undergo a privacy audit by E&Y or another auditor in the UK. We are in the middle of a Privacy Impact Assessment (for info on PIA please see the Information Commissioner Office site: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html which is being conducted by Simon Davies (80/20 Thinking / Privacy International) and we will work with him and his team throughout the year to ensure we adhere to the highest standards of privacy."

didnt he or they read/understand the link and its requirements?.

Information Commissioners Office - Privacy Impact Assessment
"
...
2. Undertake a stakeholder analysis

Those who may see themselves as 'having a stake' in the project should be identified at an early stage. This may include:
  • the organisation conducting the project, and perhaps also various sub-organisations within it;
  • other organisations directly involved in the project;
  • organisations and individuals that are intended to benefit from it;
  • organisations and individuals that may be affected by it, and possibly
  • organisations that provide technology and services to enable it
It is advisable to document the results of the stakeholder analysis in an appropriate form, most likely a one-page summary.

....
"

go and have a good read of that link and report back any factual points and errors as regards their use of a payed 3rd party in their employ and other points you may find werth bringing up....

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Old 9th March 2008, 14:29   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

Firefox users can block phorm with the help of an addon available HERE

The addon can be forced to work on firefox 3b3 too
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Old 9th March 2008, 15:09   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

david, while that FF add-on might give some the false sense of security, its missing the point, that being the right to collect,process and control your personal data and ignoring the UK and EU laws etc.

as a reminder of the above regarding Simon Davies and 80/20 Thinking .

id like to point out simon Davies co-workers comment, one AKA Robin Zaker on The Register.

although we dont know his real name so only The Register and he nows for sure..

Comments on ‘Data pimping: surveillance expert raises illegal wiretap worries’ | The Register

"
By Robin Zaker
Posted Wednesday 5th March 2008 14:36 GMT
With the Phorm thing, you are all wrong- if you bother to actually do your research then you'll get a different picture-

Why not be more concerned about the secretive Ellacoya or even Google's 24month profile retention?

Phorm doesn't even keep data- its trying to reverse the belief that you have to keep massive detailed profile to advertise or anything else (and I know that you hate advertising but be realistic- its not going away, especially with the 'free broadband' wars pushing profits down and out).

As one of the PI employees sent to look at Phorm (though i'm not allowed to reveal my identity (NDA)- and we feel that 'endorsed' is a bit of a strong word)

I had access to their proposed technology and I was impressed with what they are intending to do- it is in my view a step forward in what has been a downhill battle for privacy- not as private as i would want but definitely against the flow of all the other data squirrels.

Obviously you have realised that porn and the 'sensitive' material will not be read- as the system only recognises pre-defined words/matches. i'm depressed that the rest of the tech community are attacking the one thing that I thought they would consider sensible, but they are too paranoid as ever.

Ads will not be unlawfully changed-they'll just earn more for the website owner...

if you opt out then they would not legally be able to even scan your data for wordmatches- that'd be suicide so as a commercial company they wouldn't.

it's not infringing RIPA- they passed an investigation months ago..

In fact almost all the problems that you sheep worriers have are not even slightly founded- its all misinformed-

go do proper research not wildly inaccurate speculation

Oh and the whole CHINESE SERVER thing stems from a MUPPET searching for a trace on OXI.com, what a TOOL.

The thing that depresses me most is that you probably won't even believe an analyst like me who has actually researched the system but that is the truly depressing thing about the 'true online community'-

they spend so much time worrying where the next threat will come from they attack the wrong threats with the wrong information..."

interesting that he as a anonymous 80/20 Thinking employee under the pay of Phorm would post such comments.

and hes probably right, would YOU trust any of the so called official PIA report yet to be seen ,being under taken from such a person as this.

his reg post reveals his contempt for the very UK users that he and his company are suposeadly looking out for in this PIA?

if Phorm did in fact pass a RIPA- investigation months ago..

were is the report and its conclusions!

could this so called investigation have been nothing more than calling up some back office clerk in the home office and laying out the Phorm proposal, much the same as we the end users have been sold it, I.E an anti fishing app and adds as a sideline?.

Phorm fires privacy row for ISPs | Media | The Guardian

"
Phorm's approach, in trying to create a network from the ground up that involves ISPs, advertisers and publishers, is certainly audacious.

But one former employee told the Guardian that this typifies its approach: "I'm used to the culture of smart people, long hours and overall complexity but this was exponentially more true of Phorm.

It was a 'get a Ferrari and lose your sanity' kind of deal."

Adding that Phorm was "very serious" about anonymising data, the former employee noted that the company has been in talks with the Home Office about whether its system would fall under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA), which is used for surveillance and crime prevention.

But there was also one unexplored possibility about the technology, the ex-employee noted: "The [Phorm] platform clearly has some edge-of-network technologies involved.

It would be entirely feasible for an ISP to allow customers to opt out - and subsequently throttle their service."
"
its interesting that that former employee gives the impression that infact this so called complex ,secure and personal data removing and indexing app was written under extream presure and time restraints on the promise of some fancy expensive car or other bonus.

hardly inspires the average users confidance that this Phorm codebase inside the profiler and outside, is in any way 100%secure while collecting/processing your data etc is it?

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Old 20th March 2008, 12:37   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

its really hard to beleave most of the 200+ readers of this thread havent bothered to post?

is it that you dont fully grasp the importance of this interception, perhaps you just waiting for someone else to make the effort and write it all for you?.

of all the places on the web i really thought this CAG would be a one place you might find some interesting thoughts on the legal side of all this but apparently not.

were are the admins , legal council and law students and why arnt they helping this most important subject?

id go as far as to say its even more important that the UK bank charges fight this site is so instromental in fighting.

many old reders of those threads wil get the basic outline of sending a Data Protection Act, S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), dealing with the Data controllers and data comissioners office etc.

can you the reader, now contribute and we can try and get a definative step by step outlined ,written and put in place to deal with the ISP and Phorm pimping and Piracy of your personal data as many posters in many places elsewere have called it.

as a start, i think surlyBonds exellent step by step for dealing with and understanding the CRAs actions is a VERY good place to start understanding the Data Protection Act, S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) etc actions, and we should use that as our basic template for the ISP action group? changing the CRA etc references for our ISP needs.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...d-removal.html

you can look up your ISPs data controller address here
Information Commissioners - Data Protection Public Register

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Old 21st March 2008, 19:53   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

I have read as lot about Phorm and its potentially invasive techniques. ISP's who agree to use Phorm's 'webwise' application in my opinion are acting disgracefully.

Phorm's owners changed their name not too long ago. They used to be known as 21 Media. This company wrote items classified as spyware which used invasive techniques to lodge within a persons PC. It was a nightmare to remove from the PC and users who had this on their system likened it to a virus. It was written by some of the same people who are now involved with Phorm's webwise product as it is known.

I urge everyone to educate themselves about this product and form an opinion. I think it contravenes the data protection act. Especially as BT have been performing trials of the product without its customers knowledge. As far as I am concerned this in itself is open to legal action.

When people opt in for this product (and perhaps even opt out), all broadband users data is routed to Phorm's servers located within your same ISP where every bit of the data could be analysed. Of course these ex spyware writers assure us that they will ignore everything we think could be invasive of our privacy in response to concerns.

It is equivalent to your postman opening up every letter you send, analyse the contents and selecting items he considers interesting for future marketing data. The postman (ex spyware master) promises to ignore or forget about sensitive information contained, credit card information etc. because he respects your privacy . Yeah.....

Last edited by stevehay; 22nd March 2008 at 10:48. Reason: tidy up text
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Old 21st March 2008, 20:05   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

Not so sure the Data Protection Act will come into this at all. The act is in force to protect your privacy, but as we all know, there is no privacy on the internet, and all your communications are broadcast to every part of the world waiting for someone to pick it up.

Everytime you click on the internet your ip is broadcast and is not classed as private, so talking Data Protection Act must prove completely fruitless.

As regards to phorm not likeing the classification of spyware, If something is put onto someones pc without their permission or knowledge and transmits information back to a collection server, then it IS SPYWARE, by whatever name they wish to call it.
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Old 21st March 2008, 20:58   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

Conniff, I tend to agree in parts but I have already sending a letter to Virgin Media quoting Section 11 of the act and informing them of my objections. I certainly hope to find out a little more of their intentions.

The think tank Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR) gave a boost to people who think it is wrong by recently saying that intercepting web traffic in the way Phorm intends to, is illegal under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

I also feel there is a difference between interception of all data at an ISP for marketing purposes (or for any reason good or bad) compared to the cookie driven tracking which I can easily clear from my browser. I hate all forms of on-line advertising. and if my ISP wants to get involved with a company whose past is so 'dubious' well I suppose I will have to vote with my feet.

I liken the proposed system to that of my postman opening all my mail and collating items which are of interest so that garbage junk mail fliers we all get sent, are specifically tailored to my 'perceived' interest. I hate them all anyway!

Of course the postman (ex spyware master) promised not to remember all my personal credit card numbers, bank details etc. ... Yeah

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Old 22nd March 2008, 01:13   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

conniff, the head EU data commissioner has stated a few months ago that your IP address is personal data, so it does apply.

heres a overview reminder of the Data Protection Act.
-----------------------------------------------
remember people, we have this: tell your friends, use it.
“UK consumers wake up to privacy”
link: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pressreleases/2008/information_rights_press_ release_final1.pdf
For a copy of the ‘Data Protection Guide for Dummies’ please go to http://www.ico.gov.uk
Our data protection rights
• An organisation should tell you what it is going to do with your information before you provide any details unless this is obvious

• Your information should only be used for the reason it was collected in the first place (unless you give your consent to your information being used in other ways)

• An organisation should not collect any information which is unnecessary. You only need to provide the basic information which is required to deliver the service required

• Your information should be kept accurate and up to date – if you ask any organisation to make changes to your details, it should do this

• An organisation should not keep your details if they are no longer needed

• An organisation must provide you with copies of all information held on you - if you ask. You can also ask an organisation to stop using your personal information if it is causing you damage or distress or if you wish to stop it being used for marketing purposes.

• An organisation must keep your personal information secure at all times

• An organisation should not transfer your personal details to another country unless adequate data protection arrangements are in place.
and then it goes on to say….

David Smith said: “For any of us to have trust in an organisation we must be confident that our information is held securely and processed in line with data protection rules.

If we all regularly start to ask the right questions then organisations will respond to public demand and take the protection of our personal information more seriously.

If organisations fail to recognise the importance of data protection they not only risk losing business. They could also face action from the Information Commissioners Office.”
--------------------------------------
theres also the copyright act POV, after all you own your personal (clickstream)data, its your property, to profit from or not as you please, its not your ISPs right to pirate your property is it.

BTW,of all the current Phorm threads on the net this seems to try to collect information,storys and comment, to inform the readers, its by far the longest thread though, so you have your work cut out catching up now.

Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Cable Forum

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Old 22nd March 2008, 01:31   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Phorm.....

The Open Rights Group : Blog Archive » The Phorm storm
stop the press:
care of the US NY times and LadyMinion at
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33628733-virgin-media-phorm-webwise-adverts-updated-page-102.html#post34510801 for first spoting it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/business/media/20adcoside.html?ref=busin ess
Quote:
” As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions ,” said Virasb Vahidi, the chief operating officer of Phorm. ” We actually can see the entire Internet .”

The company, called Phorm, has created a tool that can track every single online action of a given consumer, based on data from that person’s Internet service provider.”

what do you make of that then, puts a while new meaning to official statments such as

“Phorm technology is groundbreaking because it serves relevant advertising without storing data: no PII no IP address no browsing histories.”

and all the rest, dont you think?.

i wonder what the UK and EU data commissioners and the courts will make of it,to name but three, comments….

remember people, we have this: tell your friends, use it.
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Old 22nd March 2008, 01:40   #17 (permalink)
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