Child Tax Credit Overpayments

[jamiesmum]

I am in a similar position. They have replied to my letter asking for detaisl of the overpayment and ignoring all the points i made in it. They have said that i did not submit a detailed claim for 2003 to 2004 and therefore they made the award for April and May 2004 based on the information they did hold and since it turned out to be incorrect I have to repay the money. Sue, you were right, I told them that I lived there until the 29 April and spent the money received on the family thereafter, but it seems to be irrelevant.

I still dont know how much money we are talking about, as they did not give the information i aksed for in thier letter. yet they are saying I have to pay it back. I phoned and spoke to a very defensive woman who told me that I have to dispute on the COP26 and thatt i have to liase with my ex, even though our divorce was very bitter and I dont actually know where she is. I really dont know what to put on the form, that I havent already told them. Will I have to pay the full amount, or if I do owe it , should i offer to pay half ? (when and if i find out how much it is!!)

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[catsue22]

Hi

Sorry to hear that I was right - it gives me no pleasure, believe you me.

Your next step is to complete the COP26 leaflet to dispute the overpayment, but from experience your dispute doesn't look like being successful based on the facts you have given me as it seems the declaration wasn't done. And doing the declaration is a requirement of continuing entitlement into the new tax year.

Also I'm afraid there isn't any point offering to pay back half of the overpayment, as in a joint claim you are both 'jointly and severaly' liable for the amount. Therefore you would need to arrange to pay it all back. If you can't contact your ex to try to make arrangements for paying some back too, I'm afraid the best you can hope for is a 12 month payment plan with the debt management department to pay it all back, but they are very amenable to this. Just tell them that is what you want - and that is what you will get.

Sorry I can't give you better news

Sue

[dax]

Can you comment on mine sue, as you raised a point and left it open. Should I assume therefore that ive done the right thing?
Do you work for the tax office?

[catsue22]

Hi Dax

Sorry for the delay - it took me a little while to unravel the detail in both messages.

First of all - forget the information regarding a time limit on appeals you found on the website. This is an area where people often get confused. There is no right of appeal against an overpayment - you must dispute it. Before you start to panic this a good thing as while there is a 30 day limit on appeals , there is no time limit on disputes.

You say that the response to your initial letter says you are still liable for the full amount. It sounds like, after investigation, it has been decided that you were not entitled to the amount you received, so will definately need to pay it back. Did the response letter state that if you were unhappy with the way it was handled you could complain? If so, it seems that the inital letter has been taken as the equivalent of the COP26 and you will need to pay it back.

How long ago did you send the actual COP26?

Sue

[dax]

Oh Sue, that sounds a bit scary, as they want approx 3k and im brass!

The Cop 26 was sent about over a week ago, but I think, after the date the letter ive recieved, was dated, so maybe my Cop 26 crossed post with what they sent. At least, im hoping thats that case.

[pinkpuli]

Originally Posted by therafalution

Just a general point on HMRC, they have a section for change of circumstances, they phone people up and confirm addresses, child care costs, anything which might affect a claim. It is really important if you change anything that might affect your claim to tell them. Claims can be affected and overpayments made because someone hasn't told them of a change in circumstances. As an ex-employee I know they do make mistakes and the training is sub-standard, but for the system to work it does need information to flow both ways. Glad i got out.

But aren't the Tax Credit people the same people as the Inland Revenue who have details of every penny we earn particularly if you are on PAYE. I am so puzzled as to how these overpayments occur. The same has happened to us albeit a couple of hundred overpaid.

[therafalution]

No there are different sections for different things and i suspect this is how mistakes are made. Change of circs deals with just that, if you phone the helpdesk you don't get the person who dealt with your claim, but they are both dependent on that person for accurate information and they don't always get it, hence the problems multiply.

[meagain]

Originally Posted by therafalution

No there are different sections for different things and i suspect this is how mistakes are made. Change of circs deals with just that, if you phone the helpdesk you don't get the person who dealt with your claim, but they are both dependent on that person for accurate information and they don't always get it, hence the problems multiply.

Two issues at hand:

1. Income assessable for tax and income assessable for Tax Credits are not the same thing, and they cannot make the assumption from one to the other. They do generate lists of cases where income stated on the P14 (the 3-part form your P60 come from) doesn't match the income recorded on the TC system, but nothing is done automatically.

2. TC600 claim forms and TC603D renewal declarations are processed by computer. That said, the computer makes no assumptions, so if it can't read any part of your application, it gets passed to a human, who enters the information precisely as it appears - mistakes and all (so no arguments are raised over what precisely you put on your form).

[splashin]

Originally Posted by MICHFERGIE

I Need help on this one, I have jsut received a letter fronm the tax credits this goes back to 2000/2001, when my son was at school my husband was on Job seekers Allowance at this time we contacted them when he started work.

They are saying that on there screen it says that my husband was working full-time and claiming job-seekers allowance I have told them this is untrue this is not on any award that I had seen, I cannot find the award and they have not sent this to me, I have told them that the above is against the law and I am a honest trustworthy person, I am at my wits end what do I do I have appealed twice now and they are not having any of it I have told them over and over again.

The amount is £6500 what do i do who can i speak to this is urgent advice

Hi, so sorry to hear about your overpayment problem. I hope what I am about to tell you will some way enable you to quash the outstanding debt. I worked from day 1 in the tax credit department, working with the system that was unknown to everyone. Anyway, with regards to your situation and overpayment, you must dispute every single penny. There was many system errors that where not discovered until years after they occured. I suspect your family made a inital claim for TC's when your partner was on JSA, you would have filled out the correct details and the claim form was probably sent in by the DWP. You then recvd an award notice with details of your award showing your partner was claiming JSA. When he went back into work, you again truthfully informed them of your change of circumstances and would of recvd another award notice showing now that your partner was working x amount of hours, earning x amount of money. No details of claiming JSA would of been anywhere on this award notice. So you believed that the details were correct and the amount awarded was the correct payment on the income your family was now bringing into the household. I know that the system had a major fault with claimants who came onto the system when they were claiming JSA. This problem was only discovered 2-3 yrs after TC's started and believe me was no fault of yours. The system could not recognise that the JSA element had ceased upon commencement of employment and would never take into account the level of income the household was now in receipt of, so it awarded maximum CTC and because the employment details were now also complete on the system it would also award maximum WTC. You must dispute this overpayment in full and seek advice and support from your local M.P. The fault was probably corrected by the Tax Credit department by means of them making a whole new fresh claim on the system, which should only occur if you and your partner split up and you make fresh claims. If you can find out if this has occured, then these are the grounds you must use to dispute this. I am sorry I can't help you any further with regards to seeking out this info, perhaps someone else might be able to help you with this. Good Luck, Keep me posted. any questions pls ask.

[dax]

Ive been sent three bills bythe inland revenue for three similar but differing amounts, do I assume they are seperate debts or amended amounts and what do I do next. I sent a cop26 but it doesnt seem to have been specifically acknowledged or at least no one has said in reply to your cop26..I just got billed and have no means to pay back this overpayment error. Whats the next step advice wise?

[shaniannie]

Oh how I wish I found this site 2+ years ago and knew about, and knew I could request an S.A.R!!!!!!!!!

Before I go on to write the essay of my problems with Tax Credits, I'd like to say that I DID WIN and got(albeit very little) compensation, so it IS possible!


On 21st November 2004 my partner and I moved in together to the house we'd just bought together. Before this I was claiming income support and received tax credits as part of my weekly money. I called up the helpline a week before I moved to tell them that I would no longer be claiming as a single person from the 21/11/2004 but was told to call AFTER I'd moved. I did this (to stop any further single claim payments) and claimed jointly with my partner on the 24/11/2004.

We started receiving some money for the joint claim (that was a polava and a half to get right with my partner having changed jobs half way through the year but that's not important...)

About a week later I got a letter stating that I'd been overpaid almost £500 on my single claim. On examining the award closer I noticed they'd ended it on the 24/10 NOT the 24/11 as it should be.

You think, wouldn't you, that a simple phone call to correct this would suffice? About a dozen phone calls later (and speaking to a dozen different people and being told, quite literally, a dozen different things) I was told the date had been changed and all was fine.

A couple of weeks later, looking closer at the dates on all my awards I found that they had ended my single claim a month early, but BACKDATED my joint claim to that date! (which was worth less than my single claim, and we received a lump sum right after we claimed, which I thought was how they paid it when you got it 4 weekly (I used to get it weekly) - so for future reference, THAT is where the "reasonably think the payments were correct" come in).

In January 05 I received another award stating exactly the same - I owed them almost £500 because my single claim ended blah blah...

More phone calls, told to write to explain the situation - did as was told.

I phoned them monthly for about 6 months to be told they'd not looked into it yet. Thought I'd leave it - I've explained that THEY got the dates wrong (changed the 11th month for the 10th) and explained how at the time it was more than reasonable for me to think the payments I was receiving was correct. After all, they were claiming I had an overpayment on my single claim by THEIR error with the dates which they could not / would not change! I thought that would be the end of that.

December 2005 - here we go again. No answer to my letter (and I'd done exactly as I was told, filled the form etc) just a request for apparent overpayment.

More phone calls, write dispute again. Stop put on the recovery of overpayment till decision was reached.

No answer for months - Summer 06 came and I got an "these are our dates, you were over paid, pay it back" letter.

More phone calls, more stress, more writing. At this point it was passed onto complaints I think (although evidently all they did was pass it back to overpayment team.)

December 06 - answer to dispute - same as before - "these are our dates, you were over paid, pay it back" .

Ok, more phone calls (how many is that now?). Kept getting told on the phone "I can't change anything, I know what has happened, I know we're in the wrong, this is your next step..... The next step WILL have the power to correct it, but I don't".

This put a stop to the overpayment recovery once again.

Onto about the 4th person that "definitely can sort this out" (who then tells me they don't have the power AGAIN) and I'm told my next step it to complain directly to the director - the furthest I can get in the complaints procedure with the Inland Revenue - next step Adjudicator, final step Ombudsman with MP. I was all prepared to go all the way, I KNEW I wasn't in the wrong, I'd got documents, bank statements, mortgage papers, solicitors letters, bank letters, utilities bills, benefits claims - you name it - to corroborate my dates.

So I write my letter again, adressing every single detail and re-writing my letter about 20 times and getting a dozen different people to read it so that it did make sense and was to the point and explained it all fully. This time, I didn't just throw in a request that they listened to my phone calls, I DEMANDED it. (I had been told I could request to get them and all my info, but I'm an info hoarder and already have it all, but like I said, an S.A.R. would have been SO useful to me had I known about it!).

Couple of letters, nothing major, we're looking into it blah blah... Then get a letter asking for the money or it'll be passed onto a Debt Collection Agency.... NOT ON YOUR NELLY MATEY! More phone calls, hurry this up, your time limit is up buster.... Put a stop to the recovery. Spoke with a bloke who was a little more helpful but wasn't dealing with the case - the woman who was was off work (typical!). About a week later I got a phone call from the woman who was dealing with it... not much sense from her but she'd read my letter and was AGAIN SENDING IT BACK TO OVERPAYMENT TEAM (here we go again I thought) but she was requesting that they pull every single phone call to listen to (HOORAY VICOTRY! Do you remember the phone call I made prior to the week I moved? ).

Anyway, I didn't expect quick results, but it took a week for me to get a phone call. They were REMITTING the whole overpayment, appologised for the inconvenience (about bloody time!) and would consider a little compensation for the distress caused and phone charges incurred.

A week later I got a letter telling me all she'd told me on the phone, and that I'd be getting £80 compensation (made up of £30, £30, £20 for distress, charges, and something else, can't remember) and the cheque would arrive in a couple of weeks. (taking it to May 2007 - 30 MONTHS! )

You have no idea how that felt, it was finally OVER!

I know £500 is nothing like the thousands they say some of you owe, but if you're in the right then DO NOT sit down and take it! If you have done as they have asked then you are in the right and they have no right to reclaim money paid to you!

Don't give up hope - although £500 is a lot to us (it quite literally means whether the mortgage will get paid that month or not) there were times I wanted to just pay up to get rid of all the bother... But I'm stubborn, and it paid off!

Sorry for just a long post - I just wanted to offer my support, and my own experience to anyone dealing with the Tax Credits. It IS possible to beat them

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[nannamoon1]

These people are a joke...

I have an overpayment, due to a system error 2005/2006 tax year have a read of my telephone conversations...yes I type up every telephone conversation I have yet when I disputed the overpayment in 2006 I have just had a letter from the Directors help line 11 months later telling me that it was my fault, I have now gone to the adjudicator...anyone please have a read and let me have your views....

REASONS FOR YOU TO RECONSIDER THE OVERPAYMENT OF WFTC/CTC FOR THE YEAR 2005/2006

Mr & Mrs Nannamoon


First and foremost I cannot believe that I am in a situation with an overpayment, I have always informed you within days of any change of circumstances. I find the system an absolute nightmare and find at times your call centre staff are totally inexperienced to deal with any basic enquiry, which I find most frustrating.

February 2005: No payment received, was advised that there was a system error on my account and this was the reason for not receiving any payment, the system error will clear and the payments will resume.

March 2005: No payment received despite when I called I had been promised a payment of £263.33.

April 2005: No payment received. On Saturday 9th April between 8am-9am I called the call centre and spoke to a lady called Laura, I told her that myself and my husband had now commenced work, myself working for xxxxx earning xxxxxx started March 29th and would be working 16 hours per week, my husband working for xxxx earning xxxxx and working 17.5 hours per week. Laura informed me that when she attempted to input the changes the system would not accept them. Laura then asked me when my Husband left xxxxx. I asked Laura why did she need this information as I had already rang the call centre shortly after October 18th 2004 and told them that he had now left xxxx. Laura then went on to say that she could not update my file with the current changes (i.e. myself and my husband now working) as the computer had not updated or generated the changes that he had left xxxxx. I promptly replied that I had actually RECEIVED an award with the changes that my husband no longer worked for Sidlow. (Yet again I am being told wrong information) At this stage I asked to speak with a supervisor as all I wanted to do was inform WFTC that myself and my Husband had commenced work.

I then spoke to Bev Hales who I explained the above situation to, Bev informed me that the reason I was unable to give them the information (i.e. myself and my husband commencing work) was that there was a change going through the system and that they are unable to input further changes until the last change had generated an award. I asked what this change was; Bev told me that it was a change that I had made in March that had not generated an award. I told Bev that I had rang a few times in March due to not receiving any payments and for information, but I had NOT made any changes as my circumstances had not changed. I went on to tell Bev that the last change I had made was in January 2005 when my Daughter went to live with her Dad. Bev went on to tell me that there was nothing she could do nor could she update my account until this March award/change had generated an award. I asked Bev what was this change in March, Bev replied that she was unable to tell me.
I told Bev that this was totally unfair as 1) I had not made any changes in March 2) I was trying to inform WFTC of changes which they were unable to accept 3) I was being deprived of money that I was entitled to. Bev just replied with that she could not take the details from me as the system would not accept them. By this time I had been on the telephone for 46min. At the end of the conversation Bev told me that she would pass my details on to the Directors help line and I would receive a call within 5 working days.

On April 22nd 2005 I called the call centre as no payment had been received and was told that a cheque for £333 was raised on April 21st and that I should be receiving it shortly.

On April 27th I called and spoke to Eileen or Irene as still no payments, she informed me that there was still a system error on my account and to call back in a week’s time, and if things had not been sorted then I would be referred to the Directors Help Line. I received a Giro for £301.30 at the end of April but unfortunately this stated that it was for an underpayment for the year 04. Whilst I was pleased to receive a payment this was money that should have been paid when it was due.

May 2005: Had various conversations with the call centre and the Directors Help Line to sort this situation out, when I spoke to either I continued to make it clear that under no circumstances did I want anything that I was not entitled to nor did I want an overpayment to occur.

June 2005: On 28th June at approx 8.45am I received a call from the Directors Help Line and was told that my annual entitlement for the 2005-2006 year for WFTC and CTC would be £3,500 again I made it clear that I wanted to make sure that an overpayment did not occur.

July 2005: On July 11th I rang the call centre to ask the progress i.e. has the system error been cleared on my account, I was told that the system error was still there and there was no progress. I asked the operator why on June 28th was told by the Directors Help Line that my annual entitlement for the 05-06 year was £3,500, yet I was about to receive a giro for £2,554.28 surely this was not correct. The operator replied “she did not know and she only worked at a call centre”

October 2005: Approx during the last 2 weeks of October I rang the call centre to inform them that I had left xxxx on 3rd October and Started at xxxx on October 4th and would be working 16 hours and earning approx. xxxx

November 2005: I rang the call centre to inform them that I would be increasing my hours from 16 hours to
24 hours which would mean my annual salary would now be xxxxx.

November 2005: On November 17th I rang the call centre as my husband had received a letter on November 4th to say that he had been awarded an Adults Independent Grant of £2395, I asked the operator if I had to tell them about this amount as I was unsure and did not want to receive any payments that I was not entitled to nor did I want an overpayment to occur. The operator told me that I did not need to inform them about the grant, I asked her on several occasions “are you sure” she replied “yes” you do not need to inform us.

May 2006: I received my annual review pack, I called the call centre on May 23rd to give the 2005-2006 final figures for myself and my husband and asked about the Adults Dependant Grant again as I wanted to make sure I had been told the correct information in November (i.e. that I did not have to inform you). I was told that I should have declared the Adults Independent Grant, I informed the operator what I had been told on November 17th 2005 and she told me that I had been told incorrect information and that I was not to blame.

June 2006: On June 8th I called the call centre to inform them that my husband had left xxxx and was no longer working, but I did tell the operator that he would be commencing a placement in September. I was advised that although he was not going to be working until September his annual salary would remain on the system as this would help to stop any kind of overpayment. I was also informed that the payments would continue at the exact amount of £62.25 every 4 weeks, yet I received a payment in June of £29.52, yet I was told on June 8th that the payments would remain the same (£62.25).

June 2006: On June 30th I called the call centre to ask why the payment amounts had changed I was told because I had received an overpayment, I explained what I had been told on June 8th that my payments would remain the same even though I was the only one working and that I had received an award with a overpayment of £2893.47, of which £230 was being deducted this current tax year, which would leave a balance of £2663.30 owing at the end of tax year April 2006. The operator replied that an amended award had been sent out to me on June 26th showing that the overpayment was more. Please tell me how after I had given the final figures for 2005-2006 and received the Tax Credits award with the correct figures earned for last year and the correct estimated figures for this year and the amount of overpayment, yet I am now being told that between May 25th when the Award was issued and June 26th the overpayment has increased yet the only change made has been that my husband is no longer working.

As you can see from the above, I have been told wrong information time and time again, I had not been able to give changes despite trying several times as I had been told that the computer system would not allow any changes to be made. Even in this current year I have been told different information and we are only in July.

I feel that I am not at fault for any overpayment that has occurred during the year 2005-2006. The amount of phones calls made to the call centre is unbelievable; as the number is a 0845 I have been charged which has proved to be very costly.

Mr & Mrs nannamoon



I have typed up every conversation, to date the above is only regarding the dispute for 05/06....you have to for your own records....where do I send the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request?

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[shaniannie]

I'm sorry that you're having so much trouble with them. Your conversations with the various call centre idiots sound pretty much exactly the same as mine did! I would imagine that the Subject Access Request would go to the Preston address (can't remember it exactly even though I wrote it out so many times!). I hope that once you get that, you get some answers.

Unfortunately, from what I have read, the Adjudicator will almost always rule the same as the Directors. Hopefully you won't have to go as far as the Ombudsman, but good luck with it all, keep us informed!

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[nannamoon1]

Originally Posted by shaniannie

Unfortunately, from what I have read, the Adjudicator will almost always rule the same as the Directors. Hopefully you won't have to go as far as the Ombudsman, but good luck with it all, keep us informed!

Shaniannie,

but as you can see, how could I have checked my awards if there was a system error and did not generate the award, also I was told that I did not have to inform them of the Adult Dependants Grant, but yet I later find out that the call centre person should have told me otherwise.......Even the Directors Help line told me different things....as you can see so how am I at fault........

Out of interest what will the Subject Access Request achieve, to help prove that they are at fault? do they respond to the request,as they do not appear to respond to much else.

Also the adjudicator is supposed to be Independent........

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[shaniannie]

Oh I know, as complicated as your situation is, I don't think it was your fault... Shame they don't employ me... these people seem to have left their common sense at the door!

As far as the Subject Access Request... I only know what I do about it from this site. There is a template somewhere for it on this site. They legally have to comply to the request and if they refuse they will be prosecuted. Although it should come with it, I'd make sure to point out that you want a copy of all the calls you have made.

In the case of the Adult Dependents Grant, you say you called them up and were told in no uncertain terms that you do not need to declare it. They have a record of that call. I believe I read somewhere in the COP29 that being given the incorrect information is part of a reason they cannot demand you pay back an overpayment, as it was their fault that over payment arose and as far as you knew, you'd told them all you need to and was told it was ok. The record of that call alone should cover that point!

Have you had a final decision from the directors? I was under the impression that my second-to-last step was my last step, but I still had "the final" step to go. In my last letter, detailing everything and asking them to pull up ALL the records including telephone calls I also asked that before any decision was made, could they please telephone me as I understand how sometimes things on paper can be mis-read and I'd like the chance to speak to someone who has the power to deal with this situation in person.

My suggestion to you is to get your Subject Access Request. If your next step is indeed to go to the Adjudicator, you need to re-write your complaint. What *I* personally would do is write your complaint as concise as you could, referencing to the Subject Access Request, perhaps highlighting it and writing a side mark ie "I refer to highlighted "Part 1" to support my claims, and so on. So when you get to the part about being told you do not need to declare the Grant, you'd say (I'm paraphrasing) "DATE, phone call, was told I didn't need to declare, pleae see "whatever you call your highlighted sections" for proof".

Also, what I did in my final letter - after each point I wrote showed it was their mistake I always pointed out "Therefore you can see it was your mistake so according to your COP rules I am not liable to pay back any overpayment" or "Therefore it was more than reasonable for me to think my payments were correct at the time so according to your COP rules I am not liable to pay back any overpayment".

Like I've said, I wish I had the Subject Access Request to refer back to in my complaints, as all I had was a hope that they'd actually check their system and pull the records, I had no "concrete" evidence!

As far as the adjudicator being independent - they are. BUT I went to the Adjudicator's website and downloaded a PDF file. Reading that it sounded as though all they'd do is look at the file and determine whether or not the TC used the correct processes to rectify your complaint. If they did not they would tell them to do it again, correctly. If they did, they would rule against you and say that the TCO made a decision based on how their COP processes and their decision was right. Personally I was ready to go to the Ombudsman and my MP, I'd collected as much evidence as I possibly could.

I wish you the best of luck! If anything I have said confuses you, or you just want a sympathetic ear (eyes? lol ) to listen I'll be here

	Record your calls Follow this link to read the review of the Truecall telephone recorder and call manager. This is the Rolls Royce of call recorders. It's a bit pricey but if you buy it with our special offer you will get it at cost: about 20% discount. How much do we make on the deal? - Nothing at all. You can also buy cheaper devices from Maplins. Truecall is the best - but the important thing is to record your calls.

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[dw190]

I can understand the problems you have with any of the departments run by the state.

I was incapacitated for over five uears following contracting Legionnairres. I ended up having a Quad byepass and returned to full time work six months later, sending a final sick note with a date when I was considered fit to commence work.

On checking my bank statement a month after starting work I noticed I was still receiving payments and contacted the department of work & pensions immediately.

The payments ceased and I heard no more, wel not for 20 months when I received a letter advising of an overpayment caused by my not informing of a change in circumstance. The letter demanding payment also said my future ability to get credit would ba affected. I was livid and appealed on the basis that I had notified them in time, a date for the hearing was set only for me to receive a letter to say the case had been reviewed and the overpayment had been reassessed at £16.00 (reduced from £300).

I appealed the decision on the same basis. The response from the appeals sectin was a telephone call to my home when I was out. A message was left with my partner advising that the appeal was successful and the £16.00 had been written off. Once again I was fuming at them leaving a message with a T/party. I telephoned them to complain at their breaching the Data Protection Act to which they responded with a name and address to send a written complaint and an address to request a S.A.R. I requested and received a letter confirming the £16.00 had been written off.

I have (six weeks later) just received a letter demanding payment of £216.00 with the same reference as all the others.

I am considering seeking an injunction against the department and claiming compensation.

	Record your calls Follow this link to read the review of the Truecall telephone recorder and call manager. This is the Rolls Royce of call recorders. It's a bit pricey but if you buy it with our special offer you will get it at cost: about 20% discount. How much do we make on the deal? - Nothing at all. You can also buy cheaper devices from Maplins. Truecall is the best - but the important thing is to record your calls.

[nannamoon1]

Originally Posted by shaniannie

Have you had a final decision from the directors?

As far as the adjudicator being independent - they are. BUT I went to the Adjudicator's website and downloaded a PDF file. Reading that it sounded as though all they'd do is look at the file and determine whether or not the TC used the correct processes to rectify your complaint. If they did not they would tell them to do it again, correctly. If they did, they would rule against you and say that the TCO made a decision based on how their COP processes and their decision was right. Personally I was ready to go to the Ombudsman and my MP, I'd collected as much evidence as I possibly could.

I wish you the best of luck! If anything I have said confuses you, or you just want a sympathetic ear (eyes? lol ) to listen I'll be here

shaniannie

I have received a written letter from the Directors Help line stating that they believe the overpayment was my fault....

I will go all the way to court if i have to.......I already have the form to give to my MP so that I can go onto the Parliamentry Ombudsman.....

This is the 2nd over payment that I have had since the introduced the system the 1st one they admitted it was their fault and the overpayment was written off about £3,000 if I can remember)

I have quoted the CPO26 paragraphs where it is quite obvious that they are at fault..

below is the letter I sent with with all the telephone recordings to the Adjudicator, I did ring the Adjudicators office this week as they wrote for a contact number......I asked how long this would take to sort out as It took the Directors help line ONE YEAR to decide....and to my amazement they said that as my case is complex it could take another year....but if they were to read the case and listen to the telephone conversations then it would probably take a normal person not very long to see that they are at fault.

Another issue I have is that I have must be 20 letters stating "while we are looking into your overpayment, you will receive your full entitlement, we will not deduct anything from your payments"

Up until March I was receiving my full entitlement, but in April they took ALL of my months money and have been deducting money EVERY MONTH, when I questioned them about this I get no response.they are absolutely useless.

I refer to your reference number of xxxxx I have now received a reply from HM Revenue & Customs regarding a dispute for an overpayment for the year 2005/2006 The reference on the letter is xxxxxx.

I totally disagree with their decision as they believe that I was aware that I was being overpaid, first please read thoroughly the calls that clearly prove that HM Revenue & Customs are a fault. Below are just some of the points that show IR is to blame.

I have always informed IR of any changes to my circumstances almost straight away, when I have spoken to the Directors Help line I always confirmed that they had the correct details and made it absolutely clear that I did not want to accept anything that I was not entitled too.

Below are just some of the points that show that I was not to blame for the overpayment.

1) Entitlement seems to differ from letter with reference xxxxx to a call held with the Directors Help line on June 28th 2005 who claim that my entitlement was £3,500 yet the letter states £2,139.54 for the tax year 05/06

2) Adults Dependant Grant, I was told by the call centre on November 17th that I did NOT have to declare the xxxxx this is obviously some of the cause of the overpayment, because when I spoke to the call centre on May 23rd I was told that I SHOULD have been told that I had to DECLARE this amount. This was not my fault please refer to the booklet COP26 page 4 “you gave me the wrong advice”

3) April 2005 tried to give change of circumstances i.e. myself and my husband had now started work, was told that I could not give this information as there was a system error on my account, as there was this error I would not receive any awards until the system error had been cleared. This also was not my fault and refers to the booklet COP26 page 4

4) Most of the 2005/2006 year I received manual Giros and every occasion I made it clear that I did not want to receive anything that I was not entitled too.

5) No awards were received until the system error had been cleared, hence the reason I had to receive manual Giros, once the error had cleared the back log of awards arrived.

The above are just a few points that show that I am not a fault for the overpayment, I would also bring your attention to how long it has taken IR to make a decision, I first disputed the overpayment in July 2006 (sent Special Delivery) it has taken them 11 months to make a decision I would like to bring your attention to the booklet COP1 page 5 “Payments for worry and distress” and “further mistakes or delays in dealing with your complaint”

Please also note that in April I received NO money IR took all my entitlement to repay the overpayment which I find totally unacceptable as I have many letters that state “while we are looking into the overpayment YOU WILL receive your full entitlement” They have also continued to take money each month which they should not be doing.

I have attached all the call logs from February 2005 to June 2006, should you require any further call logs please do not hesitate to contact me as I have all call logs to date.

I look forward to your reply.

Kind Regards nannamoon

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[shaniannie]

I hope that gets you somewhere! As far as I understand it, if the director has given you the final decision they will start to recover the overpayments, regardless of whether you went to the adjudicator or not.. I think I read that on the Adjudicator's website... Did they start to recover the overpayments before you got the director's decision?? If they did you should point that out to the adjudicator too... shows another of their failings! Before the final decision was made about my complaint I got a letter threatening legal action... the person in the director's office told me to call the tax credits helpline (never heard of a director's helpline?) and tell them. I did and they told me to call the finance dept (and gave me the no) and I did and they put a stop on the recovery for "a further 6 months for now", but I got my decision and the overpayment remitted about a month after I think!

[nannamoon1]

shaniannie

Yes they had not taken anything to pay the overpayment back until April this year, I got the decision from the directors help line in May this year so from April they have been taking money back...but every award I receive i get the stupid letter stating that they are NOT taking any money...

As said I will take it to court if I have too....I am not liable for this overpayment, any any normal person, if they did their job properly could see that.

I wish I could fill in a N1 form and take them to court now for a full hearing LOL, we would then see how much of a failure they are.

[shaniannie]

I wonder if they've ever been taken to court? And if they lost? lol

I wonder how they figure it out then, that if they're saying in one letter they're not taking it, but actually ARE taking it! I don't suppose that would look good on them in court either!