Help! Bailiffs just took my car - aided and abetted by police!

[seylectric]

My car, on a H.P. agreement from Welcome Finance with MORE than half paid off, has just been repossed by two bailiffs. I got in and tried to drive away but before I had the chance to shut the car door the bailiff snatched the key. I refused to get out of the car so they called the police.

The police said their documentation was correct and said they were allowed to take it, and gave me 5 minutes to get out of the car and clear my possessions or get arrested.

I have had arrears notices but aren't you supposed to get some sort of statutory letter? I'm a self-employed electrician, which I told them, and I also thought that they couldn't take it for this reason without a court order?

I can probably get a cheap runabout to tide me over but where do I stand with this?


CORRECTION: Well over half has been paid off the loan as far as I can ascertain from my statements.

[Herbie]

I presume that this debt refers to an unpaid parking charge notice. If so, did you receive the ticket?

Do you still have a copy of the ticket to check whether the ticket itself is legal?

Which form of bailiff?

If you could please pm me with the names of the bailiff and we can run a search to check whether or not they are certificated.

Do you know how much you owe?

I know that there are many questions here but they are important.

PS: It the vehicle for personal use or is it a works vehicle, ie: necessarry for your use personally in your employment.

[seylectric]

No, it has been repossed by Welcome finance for payment arrears. I was about 4 mohts behind but have had conflicting information as to how much was outstanding. I haven't got the paperwork to hand but i have paid roughly £7000 of a £11,000+ HP loan for the car.

The police who called said their paperwork was in order but I never got to see it. I argued with the police that I am supposed to have received some sort of notice and haven't, and I asked them to prevent the bailiffs taking it. They said it was a civil matter and I would have to see a solicitor in the morning.


I phoned the police afterwards to report the matter because as far as I am concerned the car has been stolen - it was taken illegally. I also asked why they intervened and took the side of the bailiffs because if indeed it was a civil matter then surely they had no authority in the matter. I was calm throughout and not arguing or shouting and screaming, and as far as I am concerned if I refused to get out of the car no offence has been committed and the police should not have been involved at all, let alone taking sides!

The woman on the phone at the police station said that it was taken legally by the bailiffs and that I should have paid the amount due. I said that the payment issue was none of her business, she had no right to be presumptious and since it was stolenm in my opinion I wanted to report it. She hung up. I rung back and repeated what I said, and asked why the police were called. She said because there was the potential for an affray.

These were two huge bailiffs, one of whom sat in the back seat of the car whilst he phoned the police! i can't believe this is legal and I don't believe that the police should have aided and abetted the bailiffs or threatened to arrest me for refusing to get out of the car if, as they say, it is a civil matter!

[seylectric]

PS, Yes I am self-employed and need the car for work. I have no other means of transport (to transport tools etc.). The bailiffs had a clipboard which was shown to the police but not to me. All I have received are arrears notices, which i will have to find tomorrow.

[repoman]

Whoa, if what you are saying is true about payment status (i.e. over 1/3 paid) then Welcome Finance have dropped a massive one here. If over 1/3 of the total amount payable has been paid then they cannot repossess without a court order. They could be liable in law to pay back ALL the money you've paid on the Agreement.

I'll pm you some contact details. If you want to give me a bell I'll take a look at your agreement and suggest a way forward for you.

BTW, the guys who called are unlikely to be bailiffs - they'll just be repossession agents. And to be fair to the police, they will have just been there to prevent a breach of the peace. Their knowledge of the Consumer Credit Act will be zilch.

HTH

RM

[demon_x_slash]

If they know nothing about the law, they should not be enforcing it. If it was a civil matter, as they said, then all they had to do was stand around and make sure it didn't escalate! As for threatening to arrest you, sey - for what? Sitting in your own car? A car that had disputed ownership because of a civil debt? I despair at the police service, I really do. Get that 'court order' clause checked out ASAP - actually, someone on the vehicle forum may be able to shed some light on it, as they're more au fait with hp/credit agreements.

[annaprest2384]

Hi there, i also have a car on finance with welcome finance. According to my paperwork when one third is paid the the creditor may not take back the goods against your wishes unless he gets a court order. If he does take the goods without your consent or a court order, you have the right to get back any money that you have paid under this agreement. The amount i would have to pay for the above to be applicable is 2452.48 which is on a elevn grand loan. You need to find out wether or not welcome had a court order. If not then you will be able to get back all what you have paid!!

[ScarletPimpernel]

If Welcome did have a court order to repossess, you would have known about it!

If a finance company applies to Court for a 'Return of Goods Order', you will be sent a copy of the claim form. You have options; you can return the car, or you can choose to make a new offer of monthly payments. If the creditor doesn't agree to the new payments, there's a hearing, which you can attend. It isn't a case that the creditor pitches up at Court and gets an order granted.

As for the police, it seems to me that officers who attended simply followed the path of least resistance. How much easier for them to allow the car to be taken, and threaten to arrest you, than have to admit their ignorance of the law and check whether or not what the repo agents were doing was lawful? I'd suggest you go to the police station, ask to see the Duty Inspector, and say you'd like to make a formal complaint unless he investigates the matter properly.

[tomtubby]

These people would not be bailiffs, but re-possession agents working on behalf of Welcome.

[SWALEFOYER]

Welcome are wll known for doing this without a court agreement or order their agents just show the police some paperwork and thats that.

[seylectric]

Originally Posted by SWALEFOYER

Welcome are wll known for doing this without a court agreement or order their agents just show the police some paperwork and thats that.

Really? That's fantastic because if they have then I can claim the lot back - and rest assured I will be doing so! Watch this space!

[seylectric]

Ok, having gone over a few things, just to clarify:

My agreement is a "HIRE PURCHASE AGREEMENT REGULATED UNDER THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 ON TRADE PREMISES".

Cutting to the chase, it says:

"REPOSSESSION: YOUR RIGHTS

If you fail to keep to your side of the agreement but you have paid at least one third of the total amount payable under the Agreement, that is (handwritten in box) £4072.53 we may not take back the goods against your wishes unless we get a Court Order. (In Scotland we may need at get a Court Order at any time). If we do take them without your consent or a court order, you have the right to get back all the money you have paid under the agreement. "

I'm in England, by the way.

I have added up my payments and I have paid a total of £7445.37, broken down into:

£100 cash deposit (shown on the agreement; no part-ex).
£4702.14 by direct debit (I have all the statements).
£2643.23 in cash at the local Welcome office (I have the receipts; it might even be a bit more becuase I think I have mislaid a couple of receipts).

Well the fact that the police were called is proof that they did not have my consent. As for the court order I have been phoning Welcome all afternoon to ask for details of the order (when and where it was issued etc. and have been fobbed off all day.

I repeatedly asked for the details (on the premise that those who collected the car showed "proof" to the police that they had a right to take the vehicle). The local office kept avoiding the question but having phoned a third time they told me that head office in Nottingham (?) would have the details "but they didn't know the number". On the third call I said I would give them 10 minutes to find the number and ring them back.

When I rang back, after another 10 minutes of trying to avoid the question (in my opinion) I was eventually told that "Central Recoveries" would have the details. After some coercing I got that number from them and Central Recoveries said that the branch office had the details. I told them they didn't and had passed me on to them, so they said that the Compliance Dept. would have them. I couldn't get an answer from Head Office, it was now about 5pm.

I asked for the number of the people they had hired to collect the car. The number they gave me turned out to be an auction house, they said that they had nothing to do with the recovery of the car, that was down to another private firm and i would have to get those details from Welcome.

SO...

I don't believe a court order exists. They (Central Recoveries) said they had sent me a termination of contract letter about 3 weeks ago (I haven't received one), and that was enough to indicate that they would be recovering the car. Is this correct?

Since I can't get any info out of Welcome, how do I find out if they do indeed have a court order, and if not what do I have to do to recover my money? I can't afford a solicitor and anyway don't want to get screwed with a huge solicitors bill - I don't have much, if any, luck with the courts.

I'm not expecting anything to happen overnight so to speak but I am now stuck without transport which I desperately need for work and I can't afford to buy or hire anything.

Any help appreciated, thanks.

[Herbie]

We have dealt with a number of situations similar to this. I can ASSURE you that quite a fair amount of paperwork would have to come your way well before a vehicle is re-possessed.

We have recently been dealing with First Response Ltd. The client was unable to keep to the payment terms and was currently 5 months in arrears ( monthly payments £195). They had received many letters from the company and eventually formal notification that the company had applied to the court for possession (over one third had been paid). The client then received court papers from the County Court to advise them that a court date had been set. One behalf of the client we asked that the court accept instead pay reduced payments of £100 per month. The Judge agreed the application today. Had he not, then the court would have granted possession and the Court would have written to the client to advise the date when the vehicle should be surrendered.

I am trying here to demonstrate that BEFORE a vehicle can be taken you should have received the first notice from the court to advise of the hearing date, and even if you did not attend the court, further papers should have been received advising you of the outcome of the hearing in your absence and informing you the date that the car must be sent back.

You should write a letter immediately quoting the clause within seylectric above (the wording is the same on this particular case) and asking for the immediate return of the vehicle, failing which, you require the amount of £xxx as provided under Clause xxx of the agreement. Mention also that you intend making a formal complaint to the Office of Fair Trading. It is always worth while making an online search for details of Welcome's licence and mention in your letter something like:

Enquiries with the Office of Fair Trading have revealed that your company are the holders of a Consumer Credit Licence No:123456 which was granted on 01/01/01.

The purpose of this letter is to put your company on notice that due to (their breach etc) unless I receive either (return of vehicle) or the amount of (£ amount paid) by close of business on.... I will have no hesitation in making a formal complaint to the Office of Fair Trading, etc, etc.

[seylectric]

Given that the value of the vehicle is probably now around £3k at best, is it not in my own interests to go down the line of recovering the £7.5k I have paid?

Don't get me wrong, I will be extremely happy if I can recover that as they have breached the contract (my arrears was about 5 months too) but I have already incurred a lot of expense that I can't afford and I also need to find some transport fast, as a result of them (illegally) taking the car, not to mention the stress at a time when we are under a lot of stress anyway.

Whilst I don't deny that the money would come in extremely handy, the fact remains that as far as I can ascertain I am entitled by law to my £7,500 back and surely I would be a fool not to pursue it?

My concern is that what if they DO have a court order and the documents have been lost in the post? it's a genuine concern because we already have a battle going on over my partner's bankrupcy (for £4,000, had we known about the bankrupcy hearing I would have been in a posision - just - to pay it off). We appealed on this basis, that we didn't receive the relevant documnetation and the judge through out the appeal on the simple basis that he didn't accept that we had not received the original documents (on at least three occasions, but we didn't) and that the money was still owed. (ongoing)

What I'm saying is if they do have a court order and the documents were sent, but I didn't get them (but the judge doesn't believe me), where do I stand then?

Hope this makes sense, but I'm just not that lucky!

[Herbie]

I would say to them that due to the extreme seriousness of the matter, you require details of the case number ( which they probably do not have) and details of the County Court, so that your may make urgent enquiries with the County Court to assertain where the court documents have gone.


Sorry forgot, I would personally be claiming the money....not the car

[seylectric]

Would it not be worth cutting straight to the chase and telling them that if they do not provide the information about this seemingly phantom court order immediately (they can phone me), and if they don't have one, I then go on to point out that I am entitled to my £7.5k back, failing which I will appoint a solicitor to take the appropriate legal action, and will then be claiming costs and compensation too?