CSA and Bailiffs

[ashmk]

A friend has asked me to see if I can help him.

He is in arrears with the CSA and has a possesion order (? is that right) against him ordered from the courts.
The bailiffs (drakes) have sent 3 letters (1 from drakes, 2 from RD harris) saying they are coming.

He has spoke to the CSA a lot and tryed so hard to sort this between him and CSA but there not intrested.

Apparently he didnt know about the CSA thing untill a possision order came through the door, he tried to expalin this but the CSA was not intrested.

So to the problem he needs help with.

He does not work or claim benefits. The only way i can describe what he is is a House husband so basiclly he has no income. Now he informed the CSA of this and they accepted it and made his normal weekly payment amount £0.00 but they are still sending the bailiffs.

What he is worried about is he has no income so cannot pay the bailiffs. House is rented and pretty much everything is brought and paid for with his common law wifes wages so he doenst officially own anything.

Ive advised not to let them in and he has rang them (drakes) to explain his situation but he saids, and I quote 'like banging your head of a wall trying to speak to them'

Ive told him to write .... Does anyone have a polite letter explaining the situation ??

And any advice will be great as I know nothing about the CSA and baliff workings except dont let them in and dont sign anything. Also im pretty sure for CSA they cannot use a locksmith or force entry although im unsure.


And also I just wanna mention...... Because ive read threads like this before, he is a nice guy who loves his kids and is trying everything possible to fix this.

[ashmk]

Oh yer and he said its CSA 2 if that means somthing to you ......

[sweep1]

possesion order??

The CSA (or the Child Shambles Agency as it`s known in some circles) would have obtained a liability order (a order applied for by the CSA to the court that allows the "debt" to be legally recognised)

None payment of this debt leads to bailiff action.
Continued none payment could depending on your job status at the time of the arrears lead to a DVLA ban or jail.

RD Harris are the removal contractor for Drakes/Marston, has the bailiff previously obtained access to the property?

If the bailiff (who for CSA debts, does not have to be legally certificated, it`s only a contractual requirement that Drake/Marston use certificated staff) has not previously obtained entry, it`s not all bad news, the bailiff can only obtain peaceful entry (allowed in or gains access via a unlocked entrance), no "foot over the threshold" or "let me in or I`ll call the police/force entry/have you arrested".

From your posting, it`s unclear as to what point the CSA have reduced the payment amount to £0, is it from this point on or have the CSA admitted that your friend has never owed any money?

Was your friend ever served or receive a "notice of arrears" from the CSA?
Was he ever aware of a summons to Magistrates Court for the liability order, if he did`nt attend, was the subsequent liability ever personally served on him?

Sorry for the questions, the CSA usually act in/around/outside the law until the point of arrears, at which stage there is a rigid
set of events that must take place before bailiffs turn up.

[ashmk]

liability order is what he said not possision, that was my fault forgetting what he called it.

£0 is his current CSA assesment as they know he has no income (he cares for his new partners children, does housework etc, think of it like a husband and wife thing but the other way around). The arrears which the liability order is for is from when he was working from 2005.

No the bailiffs have not been in yet.

Apparently no notice of arrears was recieved and he found out about the order after it happened.

[sweep1]

This could get complicated.

When was the liability order obtained?, when he was working, or after he left employment (was it PAYE or self employment).

If the liability order was obtained when he was working and on PAYE, a Deductions from Earnings Order (DEO) should have been activated and the arrears cleared this way.

If he was S/Employed at the time of the liability order, bailiffs will be used unless he comes to a arrangement to pay with the agency.

If it`s still within 28 days of the liability order being granted, he could apply for the liability order to be cancelled on the grounds that the notice of arrears has never been received, after 28 days it`s almost impossible for the court to cancel the order.

If the liability order was granted when the agency knew the current status of the NRP (your friend) to be unemployed and on a current nill assesment, then the arrears will stand untill he`s in a position to pay them off (ie,no bailiff action).

In the meantime, Bailiffs for this particular type of debt act under authority of the Secretary of State, who has obtained a liability order, once in receipt of the order he/she may treat it as if ot were a distress warrant and authorise the use of bailiffs (if applicable to the debtor). Bailiffs rely on the "implied right of entry" to collect this type of debt, and as such the "implied right of entry" may be revoked by the debtor by means of a visible notice with words to the effect of "No Police or Bailiffs allowed".

In the immediate future, your friend needs to find out from the CSA as to how the arrears arose by way of a "Subject Access Request", did the arrears arise due to him ignoring the MEF/MAF (big brown letter with loads of forms), or did the agency make a assessment from a employer request or enquiry to Inland Revenue/HMRC if self employed.

The Bailiffs should after 3 visits return the warrant back to the CSA as "Nulla Bona" (Bailiff Action unsuccessful), at which point the CSA may threaten to take steps to have your friend banned from driving and/or sent to jail, this provided that they can prove that your friend has acted with "cupable or wilful neglect" in failing to pay the arrears off, which could be difficult if he`s now a house husband

And all of this relys on the principle that the CSA took the correct line of action in calculating the arrears in the first place.
(Different course of actions depend on what the NRP status is, S/Employed/Employed/Un-Employed/Non Resident/Dead (Dead!? Yes the agency have been known on more than a number of occasions to chase dead people for CSA arrears).

Be warned, this is`nt going to go away easily, although the CSA can only chase arrears for 6 years from the time of the granted liability order, they will attempt to recover the arrears by all means possible

[ashmk]

OK i just got of the phone with him and will try and answer some questions.

When was the liability order obtained?, when he was working, or after he left employment (was it PAYE or self employment).

Was unemployed but the CSA didnt know this, they claim he didnt update himself with them but he wasnt aware he had to do this so never did.

If it`s still within 28 days of the liability order being granted, he could apply for the liability order to be cancelled on the grounds that the notice of arrears has never been received, after 28 days it`s almost impossible for the court to cancel the order.

Order was granted in january so well past 28 days.

visible notice with words to the effect of "No Police or Bailiffs allowed".

Ive told him this and he is making a sign for the front door.

In the immediate future, your friend needs to find out from the CSA as to how the arrears arose by way of a "Subject Access Request", did the arrears arise due to him ignoring the MEF/MAF (big brown letter with loads of forms), or did the agency make a assessment from a employer request or enquiry to Inland Revenue/HMRC if self employed.

he was self employed and says they checked his tax returns.

The Bailiffs should after 3 visits return the warrant back to the CSA as "Nulla Bona" (Bailiff Action unsuccessful), at which point the CSA may threaten to take steps to have your friend banned from driving and/or sent to jail, this provided that they can prove that your friend has acted with "cupable or wilful neglect" in failing to pay the arrears off, which could be difficult if he`s now a house husband

He askes.... If it gets returned will he get chance to defend himself before the 'sh*t hits the fan' (his words not mine)

(Dead!? Yes the agency have been known on more than a number of occasions to chase dead people for CSA arrears).

He says his not dead yet but has been to doctor for depression due to stress with this problem.

[sweep1]

You have a pm (private message) as part of the reply.

In Sickness or in Health, Dead or Alive, The CSA are going to want the arrears problem resolved.

Yes, they will probably go down the committal or driving ban route now unless you can persuade them that you are not trying to avoid paying.

When it goes this way, your friend will have to attend court (no if`s or but`s, no show = a no bail arrest warrant) to explain the reason for non payment.

I`ve provided some information by pm to you that enable you to get some more specialised advice on what to do next.
The CSA frequently make mistakes, and from what you have described, they may have imposed a IMA (a 50% higher than required assesment) based on a lack of information to complete a full assesment.

[ashmk]

Does anyone have a letter template to send to drakes explaining that they have no income and cannot pay rather than will not pay. And to possibly return the warrent.

This is quite urgent.

Thankyou

[ashmk]

Tomtubby I have PM'ed you re, certified check. many thanks.

(I assume you have been reading, i know you havent posted here)

[ashmk]

Originally Posted by ashmk

Does anyone have a letter template to send to drakes explaining that they have no income and cannot pay rather than will not pay. And to possibly return the warrent.

This is quite urgent.

Thankyou

Anyone ?? The guys startiing to get a panic on

[sweep1]

Tell your friend not to panic, further enforcement is still some way off yet.

Bailiffs acting for the CSA act on "no collection - no fee" basis, so if there unlikely to recover any money from your friend, there not going to get paid. As this is a public forum, it stands to reason that Bailiffs or their employers may read the CAG site, and so will be aware of any standard letters. Your friend could drop them a letter along the lines of "I`m aware of my rights and that of the bailiffs,and I am not going to allow them access to the property"

In the meantime, your friend could really do with finding out if he is entitled to any form of Income Support/Job Seekers Allowance/Benefit, this link may help Start Calculation

If he is entitled to some form of benefits, the CSA could start reducing the arrears by deducting them from any benefit he may receive.

Further information about CSA Enforcement can be found here English and Welsh enforcement guides - Advisers section - Child Support Agency

As before, get your friend to start a Subject Access Request, find out if the assessment is actually correct, if not, get it corrected, find out if theirs any entitlement to benefits, if so make a offer of payment.

There is no provision in CSA law to write of the arrears, Nor can Bankruptcy/IVA/Debt Management Companys write off or reduce the arrears,there is however provision to reduce or "nil" the arrears if the assessment is incorrect or due process has not been followed. Without your friend having the full facts to hand (ie a Subject Access Request) it could be a uphill battle.

Sorry I can`t provide any further positive help

[ashmk]

He informed me last night that he has requested some numbers from the Inland revenue (he was always self assesed) for each of the years the arrears cover.

He said as thats where the CSA got there numbers from then he shall start there to.

He also has a statement going back to when it started from the CSA.

I will update when I know more.

Sweep1, thanks for the help so far Ill click your scales.

[gingernut65]

Sorry to be blunt here, on what i know should be a supportive forum but I have little sympathy for your friend. Instead of playing house husband and daddy to someones elses kids, he needs to get a job and pay what is due to his own. They did not ask for their parents to split up. Why should they suffer?

[ashmk]

gingernut65, thats a typical response from someone who does not know the facts. He is a nice guy and loves his kids.

Its a little reconised fact that its not always the fathers fault and the mothers sh*t does not always smell of roses.

From what ive read the CSA is license for women to cheat, steal and plunder other people lives and still come out on top. Its a one sided system and need to be scrapped.
From talking to my friend I understand why so many familys are ruined by suicides because of scumbags like those at the CSA and people with there one sided views like you.

[gingernut65]

I am fully aware that sometimes its the mothers fault that families break up. Whatever the circumstances are he still should be contributing to his kids, yes even if he doesnt get to see them. The CSA came about because so many parents were walking away from their responsibilites without a backwards glance. Alright they sometimes get their sums wrong but that doesnt negate the fact that the absent parent, male or female still needs to pay their way. Im not one of these who always thinks the woman is right, I think its disgusting that so many mothers stop the dads from seeing their kids because of their own issues and believe when they do this consistantly even after a court order then custody should go to the deprived parent.
Im sure your friend does love his kids but not contributing towards their keep is just giving his ex ammunition to use against him for years to come.
Why put himself into a position where his kids can be told "your dad pays nothing for you" not something to be proud of is it?

[tomtubby]

Originally Posted by ashmk

Tomtubby I have PM'ed you re, certified check. many thanks.

(I assume you have been reading, i know you havent posted here)

I have left this thread alone as I could see that you were receiving excellent advice from Sweep 1.

I cannot add much more but I will send you a template Subject Access Request that is specific to the Data Controller for CSA.

[sweep1]

TomTubby, Thank you for that, you`ve made me blush

Gingernut65,
Please don`t assume every NRP is a deadbeat dad and trying to avoid paying, Having dealt with CSA problems for both NRP & PWC for nearly 12 years, in my experience the CSA rarely get their sums right. The OP question was`nt about trying to avoid paying, he simply can`t afford to pay at this stage and what his options now are.
Few parents (NRP & PWC) realise the problems the agency can cause to both partys once involved.
As for why the NRP can`t go back to work to pay the arrears, is the PWC on benefits (which would automatically invoke the CSA), why claim benefits when they could work instead. As you can see this is a argument that nobody wins.
The CSA was never formed to chase non compliant parents, it was formed to resolve the growing strain on the public purse with respect to Income Support payments to stay at home parents, it should be known as the "Benefits Reduction Agency", ironically IS payments could be activated if the PWC had no other form of income, ie NRP payment
It also replaced the Court Based Maintenance requirements.
There is a growing number of complaints from the PWC camp regarding problems with the agency, the most common being PWC on some form of benefit, very few PWC ever see the full benefit of the NRP payment, this is because in this case the CSA act of behalf the goverment and use the NRP payment to reduce the government`s portion of the IS bill.
I could go but the reason for the CSA and it`s continued use and poor performance could go on for pages, the forthcoming C-MEC system is going to make things even worse.

My advice is, Both Parents are adults, put your difference`s aside, talk to each, think of your kids, if you can`t resolve issues, the CSA will only make it worse.

Asmk:

Full detailed information about CSA law can be found here.
DWP - Advisers - The Law Relating to Child Support - Orange Volumes - Contents

[sillygirl1]

Originally Posted by gingernut65

IThe CSA came about because so many parents were walking away from their responsibilites without a bac