Is this true? Council Tax, Notice of Distress & Van Fees

[maximut]

I was under the impression that I can only get charged for two visits (each liability) and no more unless the bailiffs have been into the house. Is this information incorrect?

After two previous visits the bailiff turns up in a van and tells me if I don't pay he'll take my car. He tells me that I have to pay for the van (£110), I question this and he tells me that he's come in a van to remove goods and I have to pay for it. I argue that he said he'd come to take my car and didn't need a van but he's a 'van bailiff', there's no reasoning and off I go to the bank to pay him in cash as I don't want to loose my car. I find out later that he charged me a van fee, an inventory fee and for his waiting time (presumably whilst I went to the bank).

A few days later a letter from the bailiffs arrives telling me I owe more money (a separate liability) and then a final demand. I write to ask for a breakdown and then two days after they receive the letter I get a hand delivered 'Notice of Distress' listing my car as the inventory through my letterbox. I call the bailiffs and am told that I've been charged for the van (£110) and an inventory fee (£37). I again object to all these van charges but again they inform me that I have to pay or they'll take the car, so next week they're coming to collect the cash. I don't seem to have any option but to pay their fees as my car has now been 'seized, distrained and impounded upon the premises', even though it's still parked outside on the road.

If these are all 'reasonable charges' then people need to be warned that you can be charged much more than for the first two visits if you have a car parked outside. Otherwise some help would be appreciated.

[tomtubby]

This part about "van fees" had been complained about for a long time and bailffs know they are wrong.

Can you please let me know the name of the actual bailiff by PRIVATE MESSAGE ONLY so that I can check to see if he is certificated and also let me know which company this is.

This "van fee" was the subject of a court hearing just today and once again the bailiff company lost this argument. !! They know who they are .....

I will post more on this tomorrow.

[maximut]

Thanks for your reply. I figure I'm just going to have to pay and then try to recover the fees in court. When I mentioned court to the bailiffs they told me that they were sure to win as it had been proved in court that they can make these charges.

tomtubby: I can't send the PM as your mailbox appears to be full.

[tomtubby]

Mailbox is emptying.......

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by maximut

If these are all 'reasonable charges' then people need to be warned that you can be charged much more than for the first two visits if you have a car parked outside. Otherwise some help would be appreciated.

This is exactly the reason the advice given on this site is to park your car AWAY from the house.

[Screw The Bailiff]

Originally Posted by maximut

I was under the impression that I can only get charged for two visits (each liability) and no more unless the bailiffs have been into the house. Is this information incorrect?

Regulation 45(2) Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 legislates: For each liability order where no levy is made, £20 for the first or only visit and £15 for a second visit + VAT.

Originally Posted by maximut

After two previous visits the bailiff turns up in a van and tells me if I don't pay he'll take my car. He tells me that I have to pay for the van (£110),

I hope you got receipts. The law doesn't prescribe a van fee, the bailiff is defrauding you and that a criminal offence. Let me know if you want to explore this route.

Originally Posted by maximut

I question this and he tells me that he's come in a van to remove goods and I have to pay for it. I argue that he said he'd come to take my car and didn't need a van but he's a 'van bailiff',

There's no such thing as a 'van bailiff', he must be a certificated bailiff and you can check his credentials. Report back if you find an irregularity.

Originally Posted by maximut

there's no reasoning and off I go to the bank to pay him in cash as I don't want to loose my car. I find out later that he charged me a van fee, an inventory fee and for his waiting time (presumably whilst I went to the bank).

You should have paid him with a credit card, you would have had the bailiff by the balls. Waiting time fees are not prescribe in law, it looks like he has defrauded you on many counts.

Originally Posted by maximut

A few days later a letter from the bailiffs arrives telling me I owe more money (a separate liability) and then a final demand. I write to ask for a breakdown and then two days after they receive the letter I get a hand delivered 'Notice of Distress' listing my car as the inventory through my letterbox. I call the bailiffs and am told that I've been charged for the van (£110) and an inventory fee (£37). I again object to all these van charges but again they inform me that I have to pay or they'll take the car, so next week they're coming to collect the cash. I don't seem to have any option but to pay their fees as my car has now been 'seized, distrained and impounded upon the premises', even though it's still parked outside on the road.

If these are all 'reasonable charges' then people need to be warned that you can be charged much more than for the first two visits if you have a car parked outside. Otherwise some help would be appreciated.

You need to send the bailiff a letter based on this template then file a Form 4 complaint against him addressed to his certificating court. Grounds include a) charging a 'van fee' b) misrepresenting his powers - calling himself a van bailiff etc, c) Charging you fees not prescribed in law e.g. 'waiting time'. See if you can add further grounds to your Form 4 complaint from this checklist.

Finally, make a letter from this template and pass it to the bailiff through the letterbox, keep your car in a safe place, NEVER open the door to a bailiff and ALWAYS speak through a window. If you feel imtimidated or he threatens you then call police on 999 reporting a robbery in progress with a suspect still on the premises. Show the officers the documents through a window. Keep a camcorder handy.

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by Screw The Bailiff

keep your car in a safe place

Just to clarify this point, a safe place is NOT outside your house on the road.
The Statute of Marlborough has been used to show that if your car, or any other goods belonging to you are directly outside your house up to halfway across the road they can be seized.

Theoretically you can park it outside next doors house, or on the highway on the opposite side of the road - But you gotta have the proof! because I'd put money on it every time that the bailiff will say it was outside your house when he distrained upon it.(I think that's the right term)
You need something like camcorder footage, unedited Digi photos, witness statements, cctv footage etc, a court is unlikely to just take your word for it.

[Screw The Bailiff]

Originally Posted by chris600uk

The Statute of Marlborough has been used to show that if your car, or any other goods belonging to you are directly outside your house up to halfway across the road they can be seized.

Do you know the case or legislation that defines this?

Originally Posted by chris600uk

Theoretically you can park it outside next doors house,

Theoretically you can park your car on next doors driveway, the bailiff can only sieze from the warrant address.

[chris600uk]

Since I've been a member of this site, I haven't come across anyone who has actually had need of it - they've usually found out too late, because they haven't bothered to read this site or earlier posts on this site.

So while it's useful to know BEFORE the bailiff turns up to seize your car, it's just a legal curiosity afterwards.

BA TU DINH v DRAKES GROUP LTD 2000
It's on this site, and it's out there on the net, you just have to do a search; you'll even find the Statute of Marlborough referred to and discussed in bailiff newsletters. It's case law.

[maximut]

First I'd like to thank you for your invaluable advice.

When I originally got into this debt I didn't have any money to pay but things have changed and I want to get this debt cleared. I don't want anymore hassle on the doorstep as my wife is afraid to answer the door and jumps out of her skin every time a van drives past or there's a knock at the door.

When the bailiff originally called I questioned the charges but I had no option but to pay or they'd take the car, a debit card or cash was the only acceptable method and all I was shown was a figure on a pocket calculator. When I asked exactly what I was being charged for I was told that they had already written to me and explained the charges and there would be more charges if I kept them waiting. In desperation I even tried to call the Debt Helpline whilst he was waiting by his van but there was no answer so I called the council and told them that the bailiff was trying to charge me for a van and waiting time if I didn't hurry up. The council told me that that was correct and I had to pay, even telling me to hurry up as 'the meter's running'. I paid and was given two receipts for the two liability orders (there are three in total), the bailiff told me I was lucky that he hadn't charged me waiting time but when I spoke to him the other day and questioned his charges again for the first visit, asking if he had in fact charged me for two van fees he said he couldn't remember, called his office and then told me he had in fact charged me £30 waiting time, one van fee and a inventory fee that he was unsure about.

When the letter came through about the second liability I though I'd ask for the breakdown of the account, knock off the van charges they'd already made and send them a cheque for the balance. But whilst waiting for their reply the bailiff turns up again and I'm faced with another load of charges. I have told the bailiff to call on Monday to collect the full amount including all charges in cash, I said I would then pursue them for the charges through the court. I would even be happy to pay a solicitor just to win one over on the bailiffs but the van bailiff informs me that solicitors often don't understand the complicated law of levy and distress, although I'm sure some do!

I don't really see that I have any other option, I'm in a position to pay but just don't want to pay the outrageous charges.

[Screw The Bailiff]

Originally Posted by maximut

...

...there would be more charges if I kept them waiting.

...even telling me to hurry up as 'the meter's running'.

...he had in fact charged me for two van fees he said he couldn't remember, called his office and then told me he had in fact charged me £30 waiting time, one van fee and a inventory fee that he was unsure about.

None of these fees he talks about are prescribed. He is just making them up ad-hoc.

Send the bailiffs a letter based on this template asking him to refund you within seven days, then automatically file a Form 4 and put the bailiff in front of the judge for defrauding you with bogus fees. He can explain what he meant by 'on the meter' waiting fees and van fees.

There is also a criminal element. If you have documents confirming you have been charged these fees then make a copy along with A hardcopy of Regulation 45(2) Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and take it all to a police station. File a report that you have been defrauded by a bailiff under Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)(c)(i) of the Fraud Act 2006. If the police fob you off with the - it’s a civil matter – excuse or say insufficient evidence or it doesn’t fit the criteria to be considered for criminal prosecution, then get the name of the officer and file a complaint of misfeasance with the IPCC.

[maximut]

I understand the Form 4 procedure but what do you suggest I do on Monday, just pay the lot and then file the Form 4?

Could I video the bailiff openly, and ask him to explain the extra £149.00 charges that have been added to the original £400 debt. Would this help or would he refuse to be filmed.

Or refuse to pay the charges and just offer to pay the original debt, I'm sure he'd refuse it and be calling again or he'll just take the car.

I just don't know what to do and time's running out?

[Screw The Bailiff]

Preferably take cash and pay it to the council 1st thing Monday. Take a witness with you incase the council get awkward. Get a receipt for the payment. The bailiff cannot levy just for his fees.

File form 4 anyway for attempting to defraud you with bogus fees & quote chunks of the Fraud Act. You could show a copy to the bailiff if he turns up and that'll probably make him leave rather rapidly. DO NOT threaten the bailiff with a Form 4 - say you'll be filing it at court in any event, otherwise he can contend blackmail. Nothing stopping you videoing it, call police if he threatens you with locksmiths or tries to get you to open the door to him.

Move your car to a safe place until this matter is resolved.

[maximut]

This sounds like a good idea and I may be able to take my local councilor as a witness to make the payment. I did ask the council about paying it to them before and they said I had to deal with the bailiffs but maybe if I'm lucky and explain to the council that the bailiffs are trying to charge me bogus fees maybe they'll accept the payment. But what about the Notice of Distress with my car listed in the inventory, will I still have to pay the bailiff the inventory fee?

I don't understand the A and B sections in the The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 is this referring to the original charges for the first two visits or is this what the bailiff is calling the 'inventory fee'?

[Screw The Bailiff]

Only if he made a levy on your car, otherwise he can only charge a Walking Possession fee if he gained entry to your house. Im not sure if the bailiffs means a Walking Possesion fee (max £10) when he says inventory fee. theres no such thing as an inventory fee prescribed in the regulations.

Under the regs and assuming he has levied on your car then the maximum fees he can lawully charge you for a £400 council tax debt is £42+VAT. If the car's not yours then theres no walking possession fee.

£20 for the 1st £100
4% for the remaining £300
Walking possession fee of £10

He charges you anymore then stick the bailiff on a Form 4 and put him in front of the judge to explain it. If the judge finds in your favour then you can ask the police for a crime number and that's one more off the streets!

[maximut]

I've spent all night reading this forum and the regulations and what I'm unsure about is whether the 'levying distress' and the 'attendance with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods' can be done on the same visit?

In other words they turn up in a van, levy distress on your car, your garden furniture or even your flower pots and because they were in a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods so they can charge the 'van fee'.

If not then they could levy distress on something and then claim to have returned a few days later 'with a view to the removal of goods'.

I see a lot of people here complaining about van/attendance fees but not so many stories of successful refunds. I'm sure that if there's been no levy then you won't have to pay anymore than for the first two visits and would most certainly be successful in recovering/not paying any additional charges but once something has been levied maybe there's no hope unless the bailiff isn't certified?

I don't feel so optimistic now, maybe I've read too much...