Locksmiths and CT

[michin]

Hi,

i'm having some problems with a Bailiff who is collecting a Council Tax debt
and I would really appreciate some advice.

Yesterday he visited the property, knocked a few times and after I didn't answer he posted a 'walking possession form' which had my friends car on the inventory. Anyway we got some advice and had a statutary declaration witnessed to say the car was hers and not mine. She called him to tell him the situation and that the car was hers and she had the proof....anyway he got nasty and said he will get locksmiths to give him access. I didn't sign anything, i never even spoke to him.

Can he do this, break in with a locksmith or is he just trying to frighten us? He's never been in the property, never levied any goods apart from the car which doesn't belong to me.

The other bit is

i've managed to get into a position where i can pay the CT debt off in full but not the Bailiff charges. I'm planning to go to the council tommorow and pay the money i owe them but i'm not sure if they will accept this or if they will insist i pay the Bailiff fees aswell or nothing? They have already told me to deal with the bailiff and not them and that they will not accept payments directly.

If they accepted and i did pay just the CT and only the Bailiff charges were still left outstanding what would happen to the charges and would i still be getting hassle from the bailiff, i mean would he still have rights to come here and try to levy for his charges alone?

Sorry, loads of Qs, bit manic and worried.

[robin9342]

First get your friend to send the proof to the bailiff. Do not deal with them over the phone.

The bailiff cannot force his way in. As usual he is lying. Do not let him in and do not leave any windows or doors unlocked.

The council must accept your payment. Once you have paid in full, the Liability Order is no longer in force. The bailiff fees then become simply an ordinary debt which they may try and chase through the courts, but probably wont. They certainly cant levy for the charges using the satisfied Liability Order.

Tomtubby is the bailiff expert and will probably give further advice.

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by michin

had a statutary declaration witnessed to say the car was hers and not mine. She called him to tell him the situation and that the car was hers and she had the proof....anyway he got nasty and said he will get locksmiths to give him access. I didn't sign anything, i never even spoke to him.

Can he do this, break in with a locksmith or is he just trying to frighten us? He's never been in the property, never levied any goods apart from the car which doesn't belong to me.

No! He can't do anything, that's why he got nasty.

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by michin

i've managed to get into a position where i can pay the CT debt off in full but not the Bailiff charges.

Go online and pay it.

That's it, job done and dusted see below.
The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992
Distress
45.—
(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

[tomtubby]

Thank you Robin for your comments

Clearly there has NOT been a valid Walking Possession and as such the bailiff can charge a first visit fee of £24.50 he CANNOT charge either a WP fee of £12 and neither can he charge a levy fee.

IF he had a valid WP then yes he could break in IF you did not pay as agreed under the WP.

However the WP is INVALID.

You must write to the bailiff company to make this clear and I would recommend paying the sum of £24.50 plus vat and outline your reason in your letter.

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by michin

If they accepted and i did pay just the CT and only the Bailiff charges were still left outstanding what would happen to the charges and would i still be getting hassle from the bailiff, i mean would he still have rights to come here and try to levy for his charges alone?

No, because once the tax has been collected, the liability order or the warrant granted by the court will have been satisfied, reducing the bailiffs charges if there are any to a civil unsecured debt, and anyway, section 45 ss3 says clearly that that is the end of the matter.

Even if the bailiffs did want to pursue it, they would have to go through the small claims court, and they are not going to do that, they would probably lose.

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by tomtubby

You must write to the bailiff company to make this clear and I would recommend paying the sum of £24.50 plus vat and outline your reason in your letter.

Sorry I'm mistaken, tt is as usual quite right, you do owe them the first visit fee cos it's charges arising up to the time of the payment.

Never mind, £24.50 +vat is much better than the alternative isn't it

[FairPlay77]

Originally Posted by tomtubby

Thank you Robin for your comments

Clearly there has NOT been a valid Walking Possession and as such the bailiff can charge a first visit fee of £24.50 he CANNOT charge either a WP fee of £12 and neither can he charge a levy fee.

IF he had a valid WP then yes he could break in IF you did not pay as agreed under the WP.

However the WP is INVALID.

You must write to the bailiff company to make this clear and I would recommend paying the sum of £24.50 plus vat and outline your reason in your letter.

I agree that the bailiffs have the legal "right" to charge £24.50, but given
their record of intimidation and illegal threats (i.e. threatening to take a third person's car,attempting to extort more in fees than they are entitled to and threatening an illegal entry) why should any self-respecting person agree to pay them? They know that they have flouted the law and are hardly likely to take the council-tax payer to court for a mere £25.60.

[chris600uk]

I agree completely and said as much in an earlier post here, but tt's point is well made because as you said yourself, legally that's what they are entitled to.


So unless the OP is feeling particularly fiesty after their rather bruising experience, it's an easy way out.

If they accepted and i did pay just the CT and only the Bailiff charges were still left outstanding what would happen to the charges and would i still be getting hassle from the bailiff, i mean would he still have rights to come here and try to levy for his charges alone?

That seems to be the OP's main concern.

[michin]

Thank you everybody who's responded. It's good to get some clear advice. The council eventually accepted so i payed them yesterday and have the reciepts to show the council tax debt is now zero. They basically told me Rossendales were my problem and i had to pay the fees
which is what i expected tbh.

A spanner in the works....

Seems there were three liability orders attached to three separate amounts, one as small as 80 quid but i only had notice on one visit and that was the van attendance i wrote about. Never seen or heard from a Bailiff before that notice letter.

I understand the 24.50 bit but being as there were three liability orders
could they charge 3 x 24.50 and 18.00, basically for 6 visits.

Anyway they have told me the charges are 288 which seems excessive
being as they have never been in, i've never signed anything and the only levy made was on someone elses goods.

So just wondering what my next step should be, basically if the three liability orders changes anything or should I just pay 24.50 and leave it that?

[chris600uk]

Originally Posted by michin

I understand the 24.50 bit but being as there were three liability orders
could they charge 3 x 24.50 and 18.00, basically for 6 visits.

No.

[chris600uk]

The law provides that they can charge for each visit that they actually made, but they are not allowed to multiply the charges.

And unless they gain entry, they are only allowed to charge for two visits max.

[michin]

Yes, think I will request a breakdown of fees and go from there. Chris been reading your posts, similarities to mine with the car and it's been usefull.

I've just had a look at the wp the Bailiff posted and he's wrote down various figures on there under linked cases and the amount owed on the liability order he was acting on that day and signed and dated it. Glad I payed it, seems they were going to stack up a whole lot of visits if the following figs are correct, i'm no maths brain but them numbers sit snug into 24.50s and 18.00s so i'm assuming they have made 4 visits.

ross case 1 from wp
232.62
amount council qouted me
208.12 (payed)

ross case 2 from wp
80.50
council qoute
56.00 (payed)

ross case 3 from wp
352.62
council qoute
310.12 (payed)

the visit with the van was for ross case 2 where he was about to add 90 for van and 29 for the levy fee...sigh..anyway seems i owe them 91.50.

Would i really need to add tax to that as the amount he's qouted on the wp as the total owed there's no tax added?

[FairPlay77]

Originally Posted by michin

Thank you everybody who's responded. It's good to get some clear advice. The council eventually accepted so i payed them yesterday and have the reciepts to show the council tax debt is now zero. They basically told me Rossendales were my problem and i had to pay the fees
which is what i expected tbh.

A spanner in the works....

Seems there were three liability orders attached to three separate amounts, one as small as 80 quid but i only had notice on one visit and that was the van attendance i wrote about. Never seen or heard from a Bailiff before that notice letter.

I understand the 24.50 bit but being as there were three liability orders
could they charge 3 x 24.50 and 18.00, basically for 6 visits.

Anyway they have told me the charges are 288 which seems excessive
being as they have never been in, i've never signed anything and the only levy made was on someone elses goods.

So just wondering what my next step should be, basically if the three liability orders changes anything or should I just pay 24.50 and leave it that?

It's up to you but I've been in a similar positin with bailiffs and not paid a penny of their fees. Look at it this way: They have deliberately and cynically broken the law. First, they threaten to steal a car belonging to a third party, then they try to frighten you by charging fees way above the legal limit, and then, to cap it all, they threaten an illegal break-in. Are you a fighter? If you are, ignore them and "reward" these crooks and bullies for their misbehaviour by not paying them a penny. of their fees. With these people it's all mouth and no trousers. They are not going to take the car, they are not going to break in and - because a court case would expose their illegality - they are very unlikely to take you to court. But, as I say, it's up to you!

[chris600uk]

So there you have it, tomtubby has quite rightly told you what you should pay; and everyone else is telling you that if you don't pay the fees you probably won't hear anything from them anyway.

That was my experience, and I'm paying the council direct now, I've paid the bailiffs nothing since I joined this site.

It is up to you, it's your money.

[michin]

Quick update....

Well i gave them the benefit of the doubt and the to$$er turned up today in his van and posted a final notice through, demanding £288 in charges within 24 hours.

anyway called rossenscum and asked for a breakdown of the £288 and they put me on to the Bailiff, he just mumbled and then went on about the van fee is legal and ended with 'tommorow ill get the locksmiths' i told him he wont and he put down the phone.

Rang them back and told the women the Bailiff will not provide the info in a clear way and she basically said they don't have the info on my accounts and it's all with him, they really don't want to give me a fee breakdown hey?...had enough now so i'm writing a formal request for the info, sending a copy to the council and if that doesnt work then i'll send a Subject Access Request.

[scardycat]

hi
can any one help i dont know what to do!
I fell behind on two payment on my council tax. I called the office i sort out paying, they said it now has gone to the bailiff. I called bailiff he said i have to pay in full or they will take my things.

Today i got a removals Notice saying he will be back at the weekeng with a van and lock smith to collect the goods. He has not yet gained peaceful entery. Can he take my things this week end if i am not in? and can he say he has had peacefull entry and come in any way.

he is coming this week end can any one please help!