Success at A and L via hardship case route

[Annoyed from Caerphilly]

Hi,

Have recently settled with A and L for £6483.5, which was total amount of charges claimed in relation to 3 accounts.

Given that the Court due to hear my case (Cardiff) applied stays, rather than wait for the outcome of the High Court case I decided to determine whether they was another pathway I could take.

Following advice from the FOS I reapproached the bank and asked for each claim to be reconsidered as a hardship case, arguing that their own literature (standard letter re stays) and that of the FOS indicated that banks had a duty to identify those cases where the claimant was suffering genuine financial hardship. (The FOS advised that I was able to follow such a pathway even though my case had been submitted to Court).

After much debate and being bumped around various departments the bank accepted the evidence put forward (ill health had led to long term sickness absence and reliance upon state benefits, the amount of charges being deducted causing further financial hardship, leaving me unable to meet existing financial commitments).

However, though I was successful in the end the main sticking point that delayed matters for a no. of weeks appeared to be the stance of the Credit Control dept. who oddly are the dept. at A and L tasked with dealing with bank charges cases. Initially their stance was that they could not consider matters and, given my legal action sought to refer me to Wragge and Co., despite my arguing that Wragge were merely legal advisers to the bank and would not be able to reach settlement.

Headway was only made when I sought the support of the Chief Executives dept., being passed through to a PA from switchboard, who referred me on to the Customer Care Team, who seemed to have the authority or standing to persuade the credit control dept. to drop their stance, leading to consideration of my submission by the manager of credit control dept. (Alision Riley) and eventual offer of settlement.

I was happy to settle on the basis of repayment of charges, foregoing interest and court costs, which though in total amounted to just over £1,300 , given the total value of the settlement seemed a reasonable course of action to take - give a bit to get a lot !

Advice re following this course of action - ensure there is genuine evidence, medical and financial to support your hardship case, and that you submit a detailed fax or email listing each, continue to the seek support of customer care team, and importantly, be wary of a supervisor in the credit control dept. called Mr.Garnett, who you may be referred to first of all - not only does he act as though any refund will come out of his own pocket, but in my opinion would gladly argue black is white, not only will he aim to lead you up the garden path, he may also infuriate you with a whole range of underhand tactics, the best of which is returning your call and more or less immediately stating he has to terminate the call (which he made !) to go into a meeting. Progress only seems to occur when the customer care dept. deal directly with Alison Riley, manager of Credit Control.

If like me illness has robbed you of part of your life and through reduction in income caused enormous financial problems, worsened by onerous bank charges, then clearly you are a hardship case. Dig in, follow the above pathway and though it may take you a number of months, you should be successful.

[jansus]

Fantastic - well done - The fact that you did not get the interest is neither here nor there as technically it can only be awarded by the courts anyway- so the fact that some claimants have recieved it is really more luck than anything else.

I am so pleased you have suceeded as right from the begining I have been posting the full agreement stating that it was part of the original agreement / a condition, of the court case that harship cases should have been filtered through - and I have not been able to understand why more people have not been more sucessful in lifting stays on this basis in the courts. The only thing I can think of was that the wording was not specific enough and I suppose "hardship" in some cases can be difficult to define/prove in a court situation.

I would just like to say well done for your perseverance and thanks for posting how you have achieved your claim. I hope your post gets picked up and the information passed on to those it applies to.

It just goes to show perseverance and contacting the right person does sometimes pay off


CONGRATULATIONS again

jan

[jansus]

just bumping you back up to the top as I think your post is important

Jan

[zootscoot]

Fantastic result!

Well done to you. Its interesting to know that the FOS will now hear claims where a court claim has been issued. This is the second time I've heard of this happening. It was the position that FOS would not get involved where a claim has been made in the courts.

Thank your for sharing your experience I'm sure many others may benefit.

Enjoy your payout!

[clover46]

Just to let you all know- my daughter has recently attended a hearing for stay removal against Barclays- This is a benefit claim and her argument was that of "hardship" - Barclays counsel was not at all interested in this and stated that the social security administration act section 187 was not at all relevant to her case. The judge was quite agitated with Barclays and consequently ordered the following:

It is ordered that:

(1) The claimants application be deemed to be also a application for a Interim Injunction under CPR 25.1

(2) The claimant is to file and serve any additional evidence by 4pm on 10th October.

(3) The defendant do file and serve any evidence in reply by 4pm on 24th October.

(4) This matter be re-listed for further hearing on ****** at 10.00am at **** County Court- with an estimated length of hearing of 3 hours.

In response to this we have filed further evidence of financial "hardship" i.e copies of court orders from utility companys, demanding letters from other sources, threat of possesion of home, copy of BBC news report where judge Abrahams applied clauses to a stay preventing any futher charges, - we also enclosed letters from a counsellor who confirmed that my daughter was suffering with anxiety and depression due to her financial situation, in all we have attached 18 documents to her case.

The day after the hearing Barclays litigation telephoned my daughter stating that she would not be treated any differently to anybody else regardless of being on a benefit. We have quoted this with the above evidence too!

[Annoyed from Caerphilly]

Nice one, not only have you succeeded in rattling Barclays, in the process making it plain that you will not fall for their bully boy tactics (daft how they think they can intimidate claimants via unpleasant phonecalls) but you have also clearly succeeded in persuading the Judge of the unreasonableness of their position.

Keep at em ! I know it isn't pleasant as I have been there myself, but like me I am sure that you can see that determination usually wins the day.

(Don't forget to claim for costs at the hearing - there is info. on this issue on the site, regretably though I am not sure where it is located. Sure one of the moderators, etc, can assist).

[Annoyed from Caerphilly]

Thanks Jan - it was hard to keep motivating myself, but if nothing else I was determined that the slippery characters were not going to riggle out of the basis of the agreement (re examining hardship cases) agreed between the OFT, banks and FSA.

Obviously I am not clear if my experience is true across the board, but I get the feeling that other banks may have adopted the initial stance of the A and L - i.e., refuse to even pay lip service to the basis of the agreement, failing in the process to identify which claimants could be deemed to be genuine hardship cases, and even worse, (also) aim to fob off claimants who contact the bank and identify themselves as suffering from hardship.

It took me weeks of arguing my case, but with perseverence (and refusing to be drawn into the game playing) it is possible to succeed.

Thanks for your support, all the best.

[Annoyed from Caerphilly]

Thanks,

Have been advised by the FOS that they will become involved in claims where they believe there is genuine hardship.

Though I had not taken this route with the bank first of all, fortunately I received excellent advice from a no. of FOS advisors, namely:-

recontact the bank, indicate that the deduction of charges had caused me financial hardship (as per the banking act), and importantly, rather than waste 8 weeks submitting a letter to the bank to that effect and recontacting the FOS if after 8 weeks the bank would not address my concerns, I was advised to ask the bank to consider matters on such a basis, i.e., without the need for submission of letter, and if they would not address my concerns on such a basis, or did so producing a result I was not happy with, to ask the bank to submit to myself a final statement of their position. This would then be examined by a specialist team set up within the FOS, and if the team felt it was a hardship case the FOS would become involved. Fortunately, although the Credit control dept. (handling all claims) initially refused to send me a final statement, a member of the Customer Care Team persuaded the dept. to consider my submission re hardship, and to give an undertaking that either I would receive some offer of payout or a final statement of their position.

Surprisingly, no statement was forthcoming, my case was deemed genuine hardship and an offer for full repayment was made.

It seems that even at this stage (with High Court case pending) the banks do not wish to place themselves in a position where the FOS became involved.

In essence therefore I put forward the arguments given to me by FOS, persuading the bank that it would not be necessary and a waste of both parties time (for me) to submit a letter claiming hardship under the banking act - removing the need to wait 8 weeks before being eligible to seek FOS involvement. That either an offer was made or a final statement of position was sent to me, allowing me to seek FOS support. Once the bank accepted my evidence of hardship (reliance on benefits, inability to meet commitments, likelihood of continued ill health for some time) an offer in full was made.

Would advise anyone contemplating this route to first of all seek FOS advice. (There is a particular term for final statement of position which I regrettably cannot recall, FOS can advise, rest of advice is correct as taken from notes).

Thanks for your support and that of CAG generally. Have made a small donation earlier in week, larger one will be following in due course. Have also posted off some T and C to address given.

On now to harass credit card Companies !!

[jodybuk]

HI guys, congrats on a fab result.
Did you use a template letter as your first request due to hardship if so where did you find it & if not where did you start.
I am teertering really close to the edge & in real danger of falling off, I could get the 3k A&L owe me that would go a long way to sorting myself out.
thanks

[Annoyed from Caerphilly]

Hi,

I didn't use a template letter, just sought to argue my case as per advice from FOS.

Follow the detailed information I gave in yesterdays response (posted at 23.09) and earlier responses.

Namely, if you cannot get any support from Credit control dept. or other respective dept. handling your bank charge claim, seek support of customer care team, accessed if needs be via a PA to chief exec.

Argue that you have spoken to FOS, who have advised that you indicate to A and L that you are suffering hardship due to .... (put forward your own reasons), that there is a duty on bank (as per agreement between banks, FOS and OFT at time agreement reached to jointly submit a test case to High Court) to identify those claimants that are genuine hardship cases, i.e, the imposition of charges having casued genuine financial hardship. You are identifying yourself as such, and rather than submitting a letter under the Banking act indicating the charges applied have caused you hardship and thereafter waiting upto 8 weeks for a reply before (if reply unsatisfactory) seeking support of FOS, you want bank to consider your claim as one of genuine hardship straight away, either from your verbal request or subsequent to you outlining your position in writing. If bank are unwilling to consider your request, advise them that they have an obligation to supply you with a final written response indicating that they do not consider your case one of hardship, or having considered it, that any offer they make to you (if you find it unsatisfactory) is their final position.

Push for Customer Care team to take up case on your behalf in line with above. (Quickest route to this team - ring main A and L HQ no. ask for team, insist put through, alternatively, ask to speak to PA to Chief Exec., briefly outline case, ask PA to arrange for team to recall you)

Find out who you can send a fax to in Customer Care team outlining your position, i.e., hardship, basis of hardship, reduced income, etc, how charges made financial situation worse and loss of sum of money involved continues to impact upon your position.

State that in first instance you want your claim reconsidered, statement re final written response is used as a bargaining tool or tactic, i.e., you have to consider my case OR provide a letter.

Do not be fobbed off with claim that as matter is with Wragge and Co. it cannot be considered, re-emphasise that in letter from bank post stay and Wragge and Co. it outlines duty of bank to consider genuine hardship cases, the fact that you have instigated legal action is neither here nor there, agreement re ability of bank to request stays was made with proviso that banks would continue to consider hardship cases.

In case it is of benefit to you, have copied below the text of the letter I submitted to Credit Control dept. and thereafter to customer care team arguing my case:


Manager
Credit Control Department
Alliance and Leicester

3rd September, 2007

Dear Sir / Madam,

Re: Account numbers 12345678
Mr.**********, request for refund of charges on basis of hardship

Note – adapt this letter in line with your own set of circumstances, beef up your position with detailed info. re how (ill health, one off financial burden, etc) you began to suffer difficulties, alternatively, indicate, for example, that your monthly income and expenditure is so tight, that any reduction in income, e.g., charges, led to an imbalance and inability to meet usual monthly expenses. You need to try and show that you are unable to meet obligations and that situation is compounding and getting worse, e.g., as in my case, charges are creating and increasing an overdrawn balance.
Letter was originally sent to Credit Control Dept. and subsequently, when they agreed to seek to resolve matters on my behalf (credit control dept. would not move from position of could not assist as matters now with Wragge and Co,) by the Customer Care Team



Further to our initial and recent telephone calls, my referral back to yourself via the Chief Executives Office, and your request that I place in writing the basis of the financial hardship I am experiencing along with an indication of the amount of charges applied to the above two accounts.

Please excuse the delay in getting this information to you, I have only been able to collate the necessary information with the assistance of a member of my family and at a time of mental clarity. I hope the following suffices, if not please do not hesitate to ask for further information.

The basis of the financial hardship I am experiencing is:-

· First of all outlined ill health that led to drop in income and eventually position where only income was state benefits
· Secondly that my ill health is likely to continue for a time (add to both of these points as per your predicament)

Further points:-


· the illness was accompanied by financial difficulties – initially I lost track of my financial affairs and failing to transfer funds between accounts to cover expenses or direct debits began to incur charges
· thereafter, my sick pay ran out and charges began to occur as I did not have the funds to cover my outgoings or increased living costs caused by my illness leading to the worsening of my financial position
· I now rely upon Disability Living Allowance (Higher rate mobility, middle rate care) and Incapacity Benefit resulting in my inability to meet many of my current financial commitments and I find myself unable to make a number of loan or credit card repayments, pay telephone bills (a vital link when you are incapacitated), or sustain many of the commitments we all have (car tax and insurance, home insurance , etc)
· matters were made worse by charges continuing to be applied, and most recently, charges taking an account overdrawn, which in itself resulted in further charges
· I recently therefore took the decision to close down both of the specified accounts, realising that in effect this was the only option open to me - if I failed to do so charges would continue to mount, principally as I was not in a position to bring the 123456789 account back into credit or the 123456789 account below its agreed overdraft limit
· presently my state of health is not that good, I suffered a significant relapse in February of this year ….. outlined current medical condition


In total £****** in charges have been deducted from the specified accounts, £**** from (account numbered) 123456789 and £****** from 123456789

Clearly the deduction of such a large overall sum of money has done nothing other that worsen the financial difficulties and hardship experienced.

I feel there is nothing to be gained at this point from questioning the level of charges applied; my position (confirmed via contact with the FOS and OFT) is merely that the agreement reached between the banks, FSA, FOS and OFT prior to the OFT v banks case being submitted to the High Court at the end of July clearly states that responsibility for determining and resolving a ‘hardship case’ lies with the bank, that the waiver granted to banks, allowing complaints re charges to be held pending the outcome of the High Court case does not apply to ‘hardship’ cases, and banks should therefore seek to identify and resolve such cases; further that where agreement cannot be reached between a customer and a bank the bank must issue a final response letter as a precursor to the FOS seeking to resolve matters.

My further position is that I firmly believe it will be possible for you to address my concerns such that I deem the matter settled negating any need for involvement of the FOS or closer to home the continued involvement of the Chief Executives office.

As indicated during one of our recent telephone conversations:-

· £****** has been deducted in charges
· £***** from account numbered 123456789
· £****** from account numbered 123456789
· were my legal action against A and L (to recover the charges levied) have proceeded to Court I would have been entitled to claim statutory interest at the rate of 8% and Court fees of £120
· respectively:- £**** in interest plus fees of £120 for account numbered 123456789 and £***** plus £120 for account numbered 123456789


This information and a full list of the charges applied to each account can be found in the attached spreadsheets

You will note that the overwhelming majority of the charges were applied post the deterioration of my health and financial circumstances.

I am willing to forego the amount I sought to claim for statutory interest and Court charges – in total £****

I therefore look to you agreeing to repay in full all of the charges levied and deducted from the specified accounts, namely, the sum of £*******

As indicated, I do not, with respect, wish to revisit the question of the fairness of the charges, or of whether some element of each charge was fair.

I fully believe that my difficulties meet any definition or criteria of hardship.

Many thanks for agreeing to examine matters. I look forward to your reply.


Kind regards,


********

Attached / to follow:-
Spreadsheets for account numbers 123456789 and 123456789

[jodybuk]

Brilliant, thank you so much. Will get the letter off today & make the phonecalls.
Thank you xx

[jansus]

I hope you have had a lot of views on your thread as I have been posting it a lot.

court stay lifted, new court date - must file a skeleton argument

The last post in this thread is quite interesting as the judge says that the claimant must prove the bank charges caused the hardship? Not made it worse- but that does not seem to be your experience does it?

I am at the moment trying to help CRFX250 draft a letter stating that most of the banks are ignoring this part of the agreement - but the wording they signed up to seems to be up to interpretation! - but not giving up yet as there are some really heartbreaking cases out there.

Jan

[jansus]

Hi

I hope you dont mind if I pinch some of your wording - trying to get a draft letter for others to attach to their own financial statement and send copies to FSA to show that a lot of the banks are flouting the agreement . And your example seems very good.

Jan

[Simon7685]

Hi

I was pointed on the direction of your thread by Jansus. I am now going to try and move my case forward if I can, I wonder if maybe you could offer me any advice on the best way forward for me.

My case has been stayed pending result of the test case. I would say I am suffering immense hardship at the moment due to my continuing spiral into debt with the Abbey and the fact I have to support my family on £90 a week income support.

Like you, I am unable to work and have been incapacitated by the DWP. I am fighting to get DLA after being turned down earlier this year, proving hardship and medical status will not really be an issue I don't think. Knowing which way to jump next is.

Do I apply through the N244 process firstly, contact the FOS, or write to the bank? I am just unsure what is the best way to approach this.

I have read your thread with interest and whilst parts of it take some digesting, I found it quite enlightening. All I really need is a starting point and I am sure I can handle the rest.

If you go to read my thread, take a flask, two days supplies and a sleeping bag!

Any help or advice would be appreciated

Thanks
Simon