us v the Abbey for £7,500***WON***

[ohoh4312]

Hi Termi

New bank account has been up and running since Jan this year, so shAbbey account not being used, apart from small payments to reduce the overdraft.

I fully admit that I have not paid as much as I should have done, but there is just not enough to go around anymore.

So now they will keep throwing charges at the account, and I will never be able to pay it off.

Jo

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[deedee1310]

OMG Jo - how've you been?

Co-op have just done the same to me. I wrote back telling them that the balance was made up of charges and that I could only afford to pay £50 (and that's pushing) it.

I'm still waiting to hear back from as I only wrote to them via secure message, yesterday.

I would call them and make a payment arrangement of something you can afford each month. Tell them that defaulting you whilst the account is in dispute will not get the balance paid off any quicker.

Hope you can get it resolved soon.

deedee x

	Disputed account materials Follow this link to our library of materials to help you try to deal with the problems of defaults on disputed accounts. It is contrary to Information Commissioner guidelines and also contrary to the banking code to default disputed accounts. However, it happens all the time.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[adamc6671]

Hi Jo

If it helps, the claim I've got running against Abbey (Tish vs Abbey) follows a very similar path to yours.

To cut a long story short, ultimately Abbey transferred Tish's debt to a 3rd party agency who were actually very good at agreeing and managing repayments with Tish. They were quite happy to agree payments that Tish could actually afford, and which were considerably less than Abbey had been demanding. The debt is actually paid off now, but is of course still subject to the on-going Court saga.

The point is, Jo, that if Abbey did the same thing with your 'debt', I would assume they would use the same agency (which is actually owned by them I think), and things would in all probability not be as bad as you envisage.

Hope that helps, Jo

All the best - Adam.

[GaryH]

Originally Posted by ohoh4312

Hello all

LONG long time no speak, so hope you are all well.

Erm...................... .

I am uber-peed off actually and need some advice - but hey whats new??!!

shAbbey have cancelled my overdraft and sent me a default notice, demanding that the full balance is paid within 7 days. Obviously I cannot pay it in full, ( I could have if the whole Test Case fiasco hadn't happenned), so I really don't know what to do, apart from waiting for the baliffs to knock at the door!

Excuse me for being a bit thick here (!) but do I have any options open to me? The only way I could pay it would be to not pay the mortgage this month, or eat, but I don't suppose that would bother them.

Any advice, as always, would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards

Jo xx

Hey Jo!

Is the overdraft made up entirely or mainly of disputed charges? If so they shouldn't be attempting to enforce it.

You should write to them pointing out that the debt is in dispute and as such all enforcment action should be suspended. There's 3 things you can refer to in the letter to support your case:

1) The judgment in the case of Carlisle v Clydesdale (attached) in which a high court judge expressed the view that stays should only remain in place for so long as enforcment action is not pursued in respect of disputed charges. Enclose a copy of the judgment with the letter and highlight paragraphs 11 and 12.

2) The FSA waiver. As you probably know, there is an exemption to the waiver where financial hardship is involved. If the enforcement of what is a disputed debt leaves you with a straight choice between paying it and paying the mortgage, this is undeniably a case of financial hardship. Threaten to complain to the FSA and copy them in on your letter.

3) The Banking Code. Refer to paragraph 13.5, which states that adverse data should not be passed to credit reference agencies where the debt is in dispute. In other words, they should not be defaulting you over a disputed debt.

Incidentally, don't worry about bailiffs knocking - they'd have to get a county court judgment before they can do that, and they won't get one of those because if they file a claim you could apply for, and would get, a stay.

Good luck!

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

	The Banking Code Follow this link to read the Banking Code in full. Ofen ignored by its subscribers, half-heartedly monitored and poorly enforced

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

	Hardship By and large the "harship" provision in the FSA waiver is a myth which is intended to create a sense that the banking industry is sufficiently well-intentioned to act fairly towards its customers even though their right of access to the courts has been blocked. In fact there are very few guidelines as to procedure and very little definition of "hardship". One unfortunate spin off is that many people in difficulty get their hopes up and go to considerable lengths to plead hardship to their bank in order to get a refund or partial refund of their bank charges only to be refused. Neither the courts nor the FOS have the power to order a bank to make a charges refund on the basis of hardship. We hear of some people obtaining a partial refund quite easily. Others have obtained money by being very persistent - but mostly we hear that people are refused. Even benefits claimants do not automatically receive hardship refunds. By all means try to get a bank charges refund on the basis of hardship - but don't bank on it!

	FSA Waiver The FSA has granted a waiver to the finance industry in respect of bank charges claims. The waiver has been in place since July 2007 and will continue until the OFT test case is decided. The OFT test case will be heard by the House of Lords in June 2009. We are likley to get a decision before the end of the year. Under FSA rules, banks must normally deal with all complaints within 8 weeks. The FSA waiver has allowed banks to put bank charges claims on hold pending the outcome of the Test case. The FSA waiver is expremely one-sided as it allows banks to put claims on hold but it allows banks to continue levying charges. It also allows banks to continue enforcement action even in relation to disputed bank charges. The FSA waiver has been assisted by a general stay on charges-related County Court claims. You are still permitted to begin a County Court claim for the refund of your charges but your claim will be put on hold pending the outcome of the OFT test case. Despite this, we recommend very strongly that you begin a County Court claim now!! If you are on benefits, you will not have to pay court fees. You should start a County Court claim to recover your money straightaway.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

	Credit Report Click link to open in new window.

[GaryH]

Sorry, forgot to attach the judgment!

[ohoh4312]

Hi all

How remiss of me - thank you all for your advice, especially garyh. I have been up to my eyes in stuff (debt, mainly) and forgot to post back to say thanks.

So I wrote to them using the points above - I didnt offer to pay anything, just said that there was no way I could pay it in full immediately, as they were demanding.

No reply, then last week I get a letter from drms, their in-house dca, again demanding the full amount in 7 days or else! Lovely people aren't they.

So I have told them the same thing, account in dispute, financial hardship etc etc, and am awaiting a reply.

I have also written to mr coyle requesting a payment under hardship grounds - that way they will get the whole bloody lot back and get off my case. But not holding my breath on that one!

I am so worn out with worry and stress, if they wanted to make me br I wouldn't argue.

Jo xx

	Debt collection library Follow this link to our debt collection library. This library contains templates and advice for dealing with debt collectors who act oppressively or unfairly. This library is work in progress and will be built up over the next few weeks. 17.03.09

	Hardship By and large the "harship" provision in the FSA waiver is a myth which is intended to create a sense that the banking industry is sufficiently well-intentioned to act fairly towards its customers even though their right of access to the courts has been blocked. In fact there are very few guidelines as to procedure and very little definition of "hardship". One unfortunate spin off is that many people in difficulty get their hopes up and go to considerable lengths to plead hardship to their bank in order to get a refund or partial refund of their bank charges only to be refused. Neither the courts nor the FOS have the power to order a bank to make a charges refund on the basis of hardship. We hear of some people obtaining a partial refund quite easily. Others have obtained money by being very persistent - but mostly we hear that people are refused. Even benefits claimants do not automatically receive hardship refunds. By all means try to get a bank charges refund on the basis of hardship - but don't bank on it!

[cleo4patra]

Originally Posted by GaryH

Sorry, forgot to attach the judgment!

Gosh - this is very helpful for me at the moment. Thank you . I am finding myself in that position

sorry - don't want to hi-jack.

[ohoh4312]

Hey Hun - not a hijack if it helps you.

No worries ok?

Jo xx

[ohoh4312]

Humph!

Threatening letter received today from dmrs - this letter requires your urgent attention, the sum shown must be paid immediately etc etc etc

Even though I have PoD for the letter I sent them - do they think I am that stupid?!

"This matter will not go away so please do not ignore this letter."

What, like they ignored mine??!!

The best bit is at the bottom where it lists what could happen if this matter was referred to an external recovery agent:

"A charging order against your property" - that would be great cos then they would get diddly squat as I practically owe more than it's worth!!

Where to now folks?

[ohoh4312]

FFS

Sorry, truly sorry, but I have just noticed a very important point:

The letter is dated 13 November 2008

Today is the 20th.

Exactly 7 days from date of writing to date of receipt.

They really know how to try and screw you, don't they?

Spitting feathers here - cos the next thing will be "you failed to respond" etc etc - well screw you shabbey; I am filing for bankruptcy and you won't get a penny if I have anything to do with it.

[cleo4patra]

Originally Posted by GaryH

Sorry, forgot to attach the judgment!

This will be useful for me thank you. I will quote the case if necessary - however my claim has not got as far as court yet - am waiting for final response before going to the FOS

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[ohoh4312]

Update (of sorts):

dmrs - not heard a peep from them since their last lovely missive, but as it takes them a week to write and send a letter, I should be due one next week I guess. I have the PoD for my account in dispute letter, signed for on 14 November, so we shall see what response, if any, I get.

Mr coyle at Triton House - well.............my hardship letter to him was sent the same day as the one to dmrs, recorded delivery also. But it has NOT been delivered - according to Royal Mail it has either been, quote, "refused (!!) or lost." But also, "an item is not officially considered lost or otherwise undelivered until 15 working days have elapsed from the date of posting."

Bloody ridiculous (sorry peeps.)

So, do I resend it by special dely, as advised by the PO - it can still be refused by the recipient though, or what?

Any ideas folks please?

	Hardship By and large the "harship" provision in the FSA waiver is a myth which is intended to create a sense that the banking industry is sufficiently well-intentioned to act fairly towards its customers even though their right of access to the courts has been blocked. In fact there are very few guidelines as to procedure and very little definition of "hardship". One unfortunate spin off is that many people in difficulty get their hopes up and go to considerable lengths to plead hardship to their bank in order to get a refund or partial refund of their bank charges only to be refused. Neither the courts nor the FOS have the power to order a bank to make a charges refund on the basis of hardship. We hear of some people obtaining a partial refund quite easily. Others have obtained money by being very persistent - but mostly we hear that people are refused. Even benefits claimants do not automatically receive hardship refunds. By all means try to get a bank charges refund on the basis of hardship - but don't bank on it!

[ohoh4312]

GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Letter from dmrs today, headed "PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER."

I have composed a letter in response, but would really like some help/advice/guidance on this - pleeeease!

This is what I was going to send:

I write in response to your letter of 24/11/08, (received 29/11/0, referenced above.

I am most perturbed to find that your letter opens with the demand “PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER.” I am NOT ignoring it, nor did I ignore your previous letter of 03/11/08. I did not respond to your further letter of 13/11/08 however (not received by me until 20/11/0, as I thought you would have responded to MY letter in the meantime.

In fact I wrote to you on the 9th November 2008, and sent the letter by Recorded Delivery. I have Proof of Delivery that says the letter was received and signed for at your offices on 14th November 2008.

So, you seem to be ignoring this fact, and the contents of said letter, which I find wholly unprofessional and downright rude.

I will reiterate that this account is IN DISPUTE – I have a stayed Court Claim against Abbey National for over £6,000 in charges, plus interest, and if you can be bothered to read my previous letter then you will see that I have explained why you should not be taking action against me.

This letter will be sent by Special Delivery, guaranteed for delivery before 1pm on Tuesday 2nd December, and I will receive a copy of the receiving party’s signature, therefore I would be grateful if you would refrain from insulting my intelligence any further by ignoring it or claiming not to have received it.

Should you decide to continue to ignore me, then I will have no option but to make a formal complaint to the FSA and the FOS.

I look forward to a reply, as opposed to yet another demand for payment, by return.

Any thoughts? Anything I should add - or take out?

Help greatly appreciated, and desperately needed please.

[ohoh4312]

Anyone???

[phoenix11]

I don't know - but should you not be also writing to the Abbey itself as well as copying in the FSA - just going on what Gary posted back in October.

Essentially, that if they are now pursuing enforcement action, you will return to the courts to ask for the stay to be removed in accordance with the judgment in the case of Carlisle v Clydesdale?

Hope you get an answer soon - I'm rather hoping someone will be able to answer my queries to because too much of this worrying and hassle just wears you down.

Guess it's what the banks hope will happen.

[ohoh4312]

Thanks phoenix - sent the letter, and have stated that I will apply to have stay lifted if they continue to enforce etc etc

Good point about writing to shabbey themselves - they shouldn't have passed the debt over for enforcement, so I am on the case and doing that letter.

Will drop by on your thread in a mo, but don't know if I can help.

I posted this in the RBS forum this morning, and don't want to get told off for posting threads all over the place but it MAY be some good news, providing all the banks involved follow the same route:

BBC NEWS | Business | Bank plans for overdraft refunds

Here's hoping!!

[charleyfarley]

Hi Jo,

long time no speak.............sounds like you're having a nightmare with the Abbey still

but it looks to me like you're doing the right thing with these letters, although I'm no expert

keep smiling hun

[ohoh4312]

CF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey my long-lost stalking buddy (!!) how the devil are you?

I really feel like the shabbey hate me; actually I feel like life hates me at the moment, but with them its personal.

Going to the docs tomorrow to see if he can help me out - not sleeping at all, permanently stressed and suffering from major panic attacks, so becoming a bit housebound. Not a nice way to be.

I doubt even with medical evidence they would show any sympathy - devoid of any feelings must be an essential quality to work for them.

Rambling again - sorry all

[ohoh4312]

No replies to my letters - what a surprise, but this morning yet another threatening letter arrives, marked "Do Not Ignore."

I was so mad that I just called dmrs:

them: asks for account no, then tells me she can't talk to me because a/c is in OH's name only
me: its a joint account - says so on all the letters you have sent me
them: oh yes...well anyway, are you calling to make a payment?
me: no, I am calling to ask why you continually tell me not to ignore you, when you have ignored all contact from me
them: we haven't had any contact from you (FFS!)
me: I have PoD for letter etc etc on 14/11
them: we've not received anything
me: someone signed for it on 14/11
them: you probably sent it wrong address
me: quote address
them: erm....yes that's here.....hold on
.......long wait........
them: I don't have a number for the post room and they are not on same floor as me (marvellous - what a mickey-mouse outfit that is then!), what did your letter say?
me: that the account is in dispute etc etc
them: you do know complaints are not being handled? you do know about the High Court case blah blah blah
me: you can't enforce the debt while the account is in dispute, quoting the carlisle judgement etc
them: was that judgement in your case?? ()
me: no, but...
them: (interrupts) well, we ARE allowed to chase you, and will continue to do so - the account will be passed back to Abbey who will then sell it on, you will be chased by an external agency and a default will be registered on your file, is that okay?
me: absolutely fine - hangs up.

I am SOOOO angry - its like talking to the wall.

Where to now? Apart from the madhouse?

	Disputed account materials Follow this link to our library of materials to help you try to deal with the problems of defaults on disputed accounts. It is contrary to Information Commissioner guidelines and also contrary to the banking code to default disputed accounts. However, it happens all the time.

[ohoh4312]

Hi all - Happy New Year and all that!

Welcome to my latest installment - actually I am not laughing, because this is doing nothing for my already severely depressed state.

shabbeys in-house threat monkeys dmrs seem to have given up, and passed the account back to shabbey, if thats possible as they are all the same firm, but anyway;

I received a letter yesterday from Milton Keynes (dated 6th Jan), informing me that they intend to register a default on my credit file in 28 days from the 6th Jan.

The letter then goes on to explain the role of CRA's and how lenders use the information etc. Must think I am a complete numpty.

So, what do I do? Any letters sent previously have been totally ignored, but I think I really need to give them a heads up on this - the amount they are chasing is less than 1/3 rd of my court claim.

Any advice on a good letter that might actually get read by someone?? My credit file is shot to bits, so I am not worried about that, but it's the fact that they should not be taking any action against me.

All advice greatly appreciated as always, thanks.

Jo xx

	Credit Report Click link to open in new window.